Ersari rug. Same question. How old

[Konstantin Lapochkin Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Konstantin Lapochkin]

It was alway tickey for me to defint the age of Erasari rug. Teke and to some extend Yo mud rugs were commercially mass produced in Soviet times. So one could easily feel the difference between Soviet and old example. Turkmen Ersari was a rare breed in Soviet era. I have difficulties to judge is it late 19c or early 1950. Got this one from the auction. It is more reddish in sun and grey-ish indoors. How old to your eyes? And those two little things. One is like a small blue butterfly and another like Maserati trident?

[Chuck Wagner Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Chuck Wagner]

Konstantin,

That rug looks like a 1930-1950 period Qazan rug from northern Afghanistan, probably from one of the villages on the river to the north of Mazar-e-Sharif.

A similar piece, but newer, is shown in Parsons' The Carpets of Afghanistan.

Regards
Chuck

[Konstantin Lapochkin Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Konstantin Lapochkin]

Konstantin,

That rug looks like a 1930-1950 period Qazan rug from northern Afghanistan, probably from one of the villages on the river to the north of Mazar-e-Sharif.

A similar piece, but newer, is shown in Parsons' The Carpets of Afghanistan.

Regards
Chuck

Thank you Chuck. I believe that such long kilim ends belong to Turkemen - not Afgan - rugs only. I also heard that combination of such yellow + 2 tone blue suggerst a bit earlier piece.

[Joe Lawrence Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Joe Lawrence]

I was going to throw out a possibility of 1920 and beyond. I do like how the kilim ends are still intact. The blue also compliments the piece nicely.

[Konstantin Lapochkin Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Konstantin Lapochkin]

I was going to throw out a possibility of 1920 and beyond. I do like how the kilim ends are still intact. The blue also compliments the piece nicely.

I feel the same, Joe. Actually this is only the second turkmen rug i find with kilim ends intact. 99% of all old rugs have kilim ends weated off completely. But only here you could get the idea how the proportions are different with this original ends. Totally different

[Chuck Wagner Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Chuck Wagner]

Konstantin,

The longer kilim ends are more an indicator of age than ethnic affiliation. Besides, the weavers of Afghan rugs in the region I mentioned are Turkmen. They're just on this side of the river. The Brits drew the border, not the Turkmen. The better known "red" Afghan rugs are almost exclusively a post-WW2 phenomenon, and only the earliest have long (like, 8-12 inches) kelim ends. But significant number (maybe 1/3) of them have kilim ends 2-5 inches long. The "badam" gul minor border is occasionally found in MAD work from further north, but it is the most common border motif in Afghanistan. BTW the tridend is generally considered to represent jewellry - an amulet holder, and would be upside down from the way it's shown in your image.

Regards
Chuck

[Konstantin Lapochkin Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Konstantin Lapochkin]

Konstantin,

The longer kilim ends are more an indicator of age than ethnic affiliation. Besides, the weavers of Afghan rugs in the region I mentioned are Turkmen. They're just on this side of the river. The Brits drew the border, not the Turkmen. The better known "red" Afghan rugs are almost exclusively a post-WW2 phenomenon, and only the earliest have long (like, 8-12 inches) kelim ends. But significant number (maybe 1/3) of them have kilim ends 2-5 inches long. The "badam" gul minor border is occasionally found in MAD work from further north, but it is the most common border motif in Afghanistan. BTW the tridend is generally considered to represent jewellry - an amulet holder, and would be upside down from the way it's shown in your image.

Regards
Chuck

http://www.turkotek.com/VB56/forum/m...ri-main-carpet
just find this exellent piece on the subject.

[Chuck Wagner Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Chuck Wagner]

Konstantin,

BTW those little motifs at the edge of the kilim as anothe came into use after the Russian Revolution and the forced industrialization of rug production, another hint of Soviet-era production.

Here's a workshop rug from Ashgebad (yours is from Afghanistan and not one of these; the motif is the point)



Regards
Chuck

[Konstantin Lapochkin Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Konstantin Lapochkin]

Konstantin,

BTW those little motifs at the edge of the kilim as anothe came into use after the Russian Revolution and the forced industrialization of rug production, another hint of Soviet-era production.

Here's a workshop rug from Ashgebad (yours is from Afghanistan and not one of these; the motif is the point)



Regards
Chuck

Yes Chuck I anderstand this. Your example is a screaming Soviet production actuallu closer to 1960. Bottle green + hot chemical orange. But I got your point. Never paid attention that these little things are the same

[Konstantin Lapochkin Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Konstantin Lapochkin]

I had this one/ Pretty much the same but a notch older. the yellow is colder etc. And still there are these little things on the edge. A bit different but still...

[Joe Lawrence Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Joe Lawrence]

I deleted my first response. Nice looking rug!

[Joe Lawrence Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Joe Lawrence]

I am a little confused. I thought the bow tie looking symbol was post Soviet and the x with a line in the middle was pre Soviet?

[Konstantin Lapochkin Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Konstantin Lapochkin]

I am a little confused. I thought the bow tie looking symbol was post Soviet and the x with a line in the middle was pre Soviet?

my understanding they are both early soviet)))

[Joe Lawrence Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Joe Lawrence]

You are correct. Here is a prime example.



This is how I got confused. The below motif with my research from Moskova whom describes this as a “Spider” motif, is said to be pre-Soviet. You can tell although similiar, my example is different. This example is from a Tekke rug I have dated around 1850.

[Guest Close Guest]

Thank you Chuck. I believe that such long kilim ends belong to Turkemen - not Afgan - rugs only. I also heard that combination of such yellow + 2 tone blue suggerst a bit earlier piece.

Hi please can u tell me how much.
and your location.