Fars 19th century rug ?

[Alex Vargas Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Alex Vargas]

I came across this rug recently and it immediately caught my attention. The composition—featuring rosettes, shrubs, cruciform motifs, an open field layout, and a rather restrained color palette—reminded me of 19th-century pieces from the Fars province.

Based on that impression (and admittedly very limited knowledge), I decided to acquire it.







I've noticed some similarities with Qashqai confederation weavings, though I haven't seen this specific type of cruciform in any of the documented examples I've come across.






Interestingly, the previous owner used it as a floor rug, but it has hooks sewn into the back, suggesting it may have been displayed on a wall at some point.



The rug measures 145 x 109 cm and shows clear signs of age: extensive wear, areas of pile corrosion, some older repairs, and loss to the borders.


I’d be really interested to hear your thoughts. Could this be an older piece from Fars?

Has anyone seen this particular cruciform motif before?

Thanks !

[Joe Lawrence Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Joe Lawrence]

At first glance I was thinking it was from East Turkey based on its color, motifs along with what may be goat hair? Hard to tell. It appears old with natural dyes based on no bleeding that I can see. The brass hanger is very traditional in Germany for older rugs. I wonder if it lived there at some point?

The motif I pictured I found on a Kars rug from East Turkey. The motif is called a “Çarkıfelek” which symbolizes fate and heavens. There are other obvious Turkish motifs but it’s difficult to say as one can picture a land mass with no borders and this design could encompass a large area heading East.

its a wonderful piece and you have a good eye to have bought it.

[Guest Close Guest]

...............with natural dyes based on no bleeding that I can see.

Hello Joe,

Re your above, are you of the belief that ‘natural’ days cannot run? My understanding is that if not fixed correctly any dye can run, be it natural or synthetic, no?

Phil

[Alex Vargas Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Alex Vargas]

Hi everyone, and thanks for the information — it’s incredibly helpful! And, at the same time, truly exciting.
While trying to find similarities among Qashqai rugs, I noticed that some symbols repeated, but the colour palette didn’t quite match. Interestingly, those colour combinations did appear in very old Anatolian rugs.

The mention of the Çarkıfelek symbol in antique Kars rugs makes perfect sense, considering that the Qashqai tribes seem to descend from the Ak Koyunlu — a Turkic Oghuz people who inhabited Anatolia from the 14th to 16th centuries. They later settled in the Fars region in the 16th century, at the request of Shah Ismail during the Safavid dynasty.

Thanks, Lawrence, for the insight about the symbol!

The pile seems to be goat hair or some other animal fibre. I'm adding a more detailed photo. The rug comes from near Pisa, in Italy, although I don’t know if at some point in its life it might have been in Germany.

I definitely need to dig deeper, because this rug has me completely puzzled… I can’t find a single example of a Qashqai rug with such an open field.

What if this piece is a kind of proto-design — an early form of the later Qashqai or Khamseh rugs where the entire field becomes filled with symbols? I need to look into this further !



Regards !

[Joe Lawrence Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Joe Lawrence]

Phil. You are correct of course, a natural dye rug can run if not prepared properly. I have found the older rugs from the Turkic regions made of natural dyes generally do not run. If you don’t see it after 100 years of spills, pets and water damage as an example, it’s generally good. Synthetic dyes are easy to spot with the fading and bleeding. The language of proper dyes, symbols to include their meanings has been slowly lost. The rugs made today are not the same.

Alex. I like your knowledge of the Oghuz and you are correct.
I would really like to hear some opinions from those on this forum that are very knowledgeable about these topics. I will look into my tribal books by James Opie who in my opinion, is one of the top people in the world concerning tribal rugs.

[Alex Vargas Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Alex Vargas]

Thank you, Lawrence!
That would be wonderful, I don’t have any of James Opie’s books.
Best regards !

[Joe Lawrence Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Joe Lawrence]

After looking through a few books, I found the motif that I posted from Kars used by the Luri in the Fars Province and in the Caucasus.

[Alex Vargas Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Alex Vargas]

Thank you, Lawrence, for the information. I've also noticed those similarities. The Talish rosette is mentioned in this thread :

http://www.turkotek.com/salon_00048/s48t6.htm

And it also appears in the discussion about Freud’s carpet:

http://www.turkotek.com/misc_00043/freud.htm

Interestingly, this motif is also found in Qashqai pieces, which leads me to think it had a strong presence before the 19th century but gradually fell out of use.
I wonder if that decline could be related to its later association with the Nazis — especially considering that some Qashqai tribes collaborated with the Germans against the British during both World Wars.

There are two symbols on the rug that I still haven't been able to identify. One appears on both sides of the cruciform motifs. I've seen many variations of these forms in 19th-century examples — they were very popular at the time — but none with this particular detail.


And finally, there's another unique symbol placed near the upper border of the rug — a spot often used for dates or signatures. I wish it were a clan or family symbol; that would be a great help in narrowing down the origin of the piece.




Regards !

[John Hutchinson Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close John Hutchinson]

Hello Alex,

An interesting rug! I think you may be right - it could be a late 19th or early 20th century piece from somewhere in South Persia/Iran. As you say, it is unusually plain in design. My feeling is that a hunt for the real 'meaning' of its motifs and why they are used is likely to be fruitless - they were probably just 'filler' elements. The ambiguity in so much rug research is frustrating, but part of its attraction.

All the best,

John

[Alex Vargas Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Alex Vargas]

Hello Jhon,

I’m very interested to know what reasons lead you to think it could have been made in the 20th century? As for me, I would place it in the 19th century.

I totally agree with you, sometimes it’s very frustrating not to find any information about a design or motif, but the satisfaction when you find what you were looking for or the excitement when you feel like you’re on the right track is priceless.

Best regards,

Alex

[Joe Lawrence Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Joe Lawrence]

I disagree with motif fillers during the time period I believe this rug was made. Every motif has a meaning. This language is quickly being lost to time. There are many motifs now that we only know their meaning as an assumption. Even the great Moskova was incorrect with some of her definitions of Turkoman motifs. I have found some information that is old and written by locals…not westerners whom for the most part, don’t have a cultural understanding of a rugs true meaning. As I mentioned, unless this is passed on from locals and families and hopefully written down and even better, published, it’s fading away at an alarming speed.

Alex, according to my research the unknown symbol you identified could very well be a stamp. (Mehmet Ateş “Turkish Carpets the Language of Motifs and Symbols” 1993)
Stamps were used by tribes as a unique identification marker not only for strengthening the tribe, but also to assist them in sorting them out if mixed up or lost and for identifying the origin of the tribe. Consider it an Apple ID tag of today.

Back to the Wheel of Fortune “Çarkıfelek” motif. This dates back to 5000 BC apparently representing the four Gods of wind. Today it symbolizes the revolving earth, the revolving destiny, and the wheel of fortune and love. (C.E. Arseven “Türk Sanatı” 1984)
I have seen this symbol used by weavers as far West in Bergama to Kars in East Turkey. Of course it even travels further East than that.
For the question of where it originated or by whom, is still a mystery I haven’t solved.

[John Hutchinson Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close John Hutchinson]

Hello Alex (and Joe) -

I agree that your rug has the characteristics of an old piece, but there are no clear lines that define the difference between those made in the later years of the 19th and others that date from the early 20th century. I've found it useful, with regard to looking at rugs, to keep options open. And yes, many South Persian rugs have strange marks that may have something to do with identification - but then again, they may not!

Best wishes,

John

[Joe Lawrence Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Joe Lawrence]

I couldn’t post pics yesterday for some reason and it’s working now. Below is an example of stamps used by tribes on rugs.

The 2nd picture is an example from West Turkey (Bakırcay rıver and valley on the boarder of Izmer and Manisa) known as a Yuntdağ Kokak rug showing the wheel of fortune motif. I am showing this as an example of the range is distance this particular motif has been used. For reference this area produces what is translated to mean “quarter” rugs which are smaller and on average, sized 3 ft x 5 ft. Give or take a few centimeters.

[Alex Vargas Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Alex Vargas]

Hello everyone,
What a crazy day we had two days ago in Spain. The whole country was left without electricity; the entire system went down in 5 seconds, just like that. Luckily, the main services were able to continue operating with generators, but the whole country had to have dinner by candlelight. At least we could enjoy the stars !
In moments like these, you realize how fragile we are as a society without technology, and how much the nomads from the Fars region would have laughed at seeing us so lost. There were even people who didn't know how to get home because Google Maps wasn't working—unbelievable. It also affected the whole of Southern Europe. Maybe that’s why Joe had trouble uploading photos.
Joe, thanks for the information, it’s been really useful, thank you, thank you!
The fact that we agree this could be a symbol of a clan or family makes me very happy. Actually, I also have the same book, which is why I made the note about it possibly being a stamp (page 31). My apologies for not referencing the book—I didn’t want to sound too expert when actually I'm a newbie.
Regarding the "Wheel of Fortune" symbol, "Çarkıfelek," thank you, because I didn’t notice that symbol when I read the book, but now I see it (page 49). I’ve tried to do some research on this symbol, and it’s incredible the number of very old examples. Like this one, the Lakh Mazar inscriptions in Iran with more than 7.000 years old.




I don’t have the book Türk Sanatı (1984), so I’m not sure if it refers to these inscriptions, since they seem to be from the same time period you mentioned. However, I did find some chronicles from the British army that was stationed in Iran in the early 20th century, and they contain some very interesting information about the Qashqai tribes. I don’t have the link right now because I’m not in my computer, but I’ll share it with you soon.
Jhon, thanks for your contributions. You’re right, we always have to keep all options open.

Kind regards,
Alex

[Joe Lawrence Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Joe Lawrence]

Very nice response and I like how you described the world today lost without technology! I agree! We have all become domesticated. You are very lucky to be in Spain and have the chance to see Granada. A lot of Müslüm history there.