a turkmen torba

[John Carpenter Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close John Carpenter]

Hi All,

This is a torba, references to which I have not found in my rugbooks. It has 77 knots per sq. in., which are asymmetrical and open to the left. It still has its back, though lengthy use has most likely been responsible for the detachment of the back only along its sides. The photo gives an accurate idea of the torba's color. I hope someone out there will be able to tell me more than I presently know.

[Steve Price Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Steve Price]

Hi John

It's a torba woven by an Ersari woman living in a town or city and marketed through the town, Beshir. These are usually referred to as Beshir for that reason. They are typically woven with asymmetric knots open to the right, and I'm wondering if your is really knotted open to the left. It might help to know that the end woven first in this one is probably the top. It probably dates to the last quarter of the 19th century. The design is a little out of the mainstream, but that's not unusual in Beshir work.

Steve Price

[John Carpenter Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close John Carpenter]

Hi Steve,

I did my best to get an accurate photo, and it turns out that these knots ARE open to the right. A photo is attached.

Please help me to determine which end of this torba was woven first. The "grain" in the torba's pile as shown in the photo runs from the top to the bottom of the torba when I brush the surface of the torba with my hand, and I had an idea that this shows the direction in which the knots were pulled and hence where the weaver started her knotting. Since the warp and weft back of this torba was continuous on the loom with the piled part of the torba, I figured that the weaver began her weaving with the top of the back, and when she came to where she wanted to start the pile she began with a row of altern ating len gths of red and blue fringed knots where the fringe has by now worn away and ended her knotting at what is the top of the torba in the photo.

John Carpenter

[Steve Price Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Steve Price]

Hi John

The weaver packs each row of knots down with a weaver's comb. This makes the pile lean down. So running your hand toward the end woven first runs it along the length of the pile (low resistance), towards the end woven last runs it against the tips of the pile (more resistance). Another way to tell (what I used from your photo) is that the corners resolve smoothly on the end woven first (easily seen in the main border of your piece) but not in the end woven last.

When weaving things like torbas, they're done in pairs. The weaver starts at the top of one pile face, then proceeds to the back, then the back of the other, finally the second pile face. Once cut off the loom, the two are separated and the backs are sewn to the sides of their respective faces.

Steve Price

[John Carpenter Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close John Carpenter]

Hi Steve,

If I understand you correctly, what you said in the first paragraph or your response is similar, though in different words, to what I said about how one knows where the weaver begins and ends her knotting. So, the back of my torba folds seamlessly from the bottom of the woven pattern until it reaches the desired length to form the back and then is sewn to the sides of the torba to make the back. (You can probably infer this from my second photo which shows the worn fringe knots at the bottom of my torba's face.) That is the way it looks to me.

However, I didn't know that torbas were or perhaps still are woven in pairs. In that case, given the structure of my torba, and more precisely how it is folded seamlessly to make its back at the bottom of the piled area, I cannot understand how more than one torba can be made where the plainweave is able to be folded at the bottom of the piled area to make the back. If the weaver starts at the top of the first pile face to make two plainweave backs for two torbas, then she will have to sew the back of the first pile face onto its bottom. Maybe that is the origin of bags that have their backs sewn onto the bottom of their pile faces. There are certainly plenty of them around.

John Carpenter

[John Carpenter Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close John Carpenter]

Something has been written

[Guest Close Guest]

First, I too was unaware that a pair of torbas were initially woven as a ‘continuous’ weave on one loom. And what a coincidence! Only last night did I sit on my sofa and run my hand down the torba that is stretched across the back. To my surprise, I noticed that it appeared to be woven from the top down as it were. This puzzled my until today when I read this thread. So thank you Steve for that piece of knowledge!


So if my understanding is correct then, and using John's bag as an example, if the flat woven back is the black section in the image below, then the design of the torba woven first would start out ‘upside’ down, and the one woven last the correct way up. When the weaving is finished it would then be cut along the white horizontal centerline so as to separate into two individual torbas, and then folded over along the dotted line and stitched at either the ‘end’ to finish each torba.


So the torba woven first would have its knotting starting at the top of the torba as it were, and the torba woven second would have its knotting starting at the bottom. Then when the back is folded over both torbas would have the fold at the bottom of each respective torba and both designs would be upright on the finished piece.


Is that correct?

[Steve Price Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Steve Price]

Hi Phil

Exactly. Once upon a time I intended to run my hand along as many torbas as I could find (hundreds, I hoped). I expected to find that half were woven from the top, half were woven from the bottom. I never got around to doing it.

Steve Price

[John Carpenter Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close John Carpenter]

Hi Phil and Steve,

I get what both of you are saying. So this does mean that when two torbas are being woven on the same loom successively, one of the torbas is being woven with the pattern upside down. That was what made me pause when I wrote my reply to Steve. I didn't think a weaver would want to do that. Then I imagined that since some weavers, especially nomadic and village weavers, use horizontal looms, it might be possible for weavers to work from both ends of the loom to make bags that are mirror images of each other without the weaver needing to weave using an upside down pattern. I don't know if the mechanics of a horizontal loom would permit what I just described, but I introduce the idea now for your comments.

John

[John Carpenter Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close John Carpenter]

Hi Phil and Steve,

When I read Steve's explanation of how to tell where a weaver begins her knotting and where she ends, I realized that I hadn't been clear in my description of my torba's construction. But using Steve's terminology I think I can clearly explain which end of the knotting for my torba was woven first and which end was woven last. Running my hand across the pile from the top to the bottom of the woven pattern shown in the photo, my hand meets very low resistance from the woven knots because it is running along the length of the pile. Running my hand from the bottom to the top of the woven pattern in the photo, it meets a high resistance because it is brushing against the direction in which the knots were pulled. The difference is pronounced because the wool is quite lustrous. I guess this shows that the weaver wove her first row of knots starting from the bottom of the pattern and worked her way up. Also, she must have woven the back of the torba first then continued with the knotted portion of the torba. I have several torbas that are similar in their construction to the one I just described. Phil, you must have an example of an Ersari torba by a weaver with a versatile imagination. To me that is special in itself.

John

[Guest Close Guest]

Hi John,

Pardon not replying to your previous.

Running my hand from the bottom to the top of the woven pattern in the photo, it meets a high resistance because it is brushing against the direction in which the knots were pulled. The difference is pronounced because the wool is quite lustrous.

Not sure if the ‘lustrousness’ of the wool is what makes the difference, as say opposed to the fineness / coarseness of the wool, or tightness of the weave (which I could envisage making more of a difference in the 'feel').

I guess this shows that the weaver wove her first row of knots starting from the bottom of the pattern and worked her way up.

Yes, going on what you found from the ‘pile direction test’ as it were, and what Steve said then that would be correct.

Also, she must have woven the back of the torba first then continued with the knotted portion of the torba. I have several torbas that are similar in their construction to the one I just described.

Given that Steve said that usually a pair of torba’s are woven on the same loom (examples A and B below), don’t you think that what you have is just the #4 panel from the ‘B’ torba in the below? Or are you saying you think that (if the) weaver wove just a single torba then the weaver started in what would be panel #3 below?

Phil, you must have an example of an Ersari torba by a weaver with a versatile imagination. To me that is special in itself.
John

Not quite sure what you mean by this John? The torba I describe (being on my sofa) in my previous post is just a panel #1 using below as an example (where the weaver started from the top of the design as it were and worked ‘upwards’ into the other panels).

Hope this help's and I haven't made too much of a fool of myself, as I am faaaaar from being an expert, just a abject novice on the path.

[Frank Martin Diehr Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Frank Martin Diehr]

Hi John

The design is called "aborv", apparently. It is not common, but really not that rare either. You can find a few examples courtesy of HALI 27, p. 22. Ersari-Beshir abrov design Hali 27.pdf

Kind regards

Frank