Advice on Turkmen Rug books

[Pierre Galafassi]

Hi Kay,

Vol 4 of Oriental Rugs, Antique Collector’s Club, deals with Turkish/Ottoman Rugs and is authored by Kurt Zipper and Claudia Fritsche.

IMHO it is well worth owning, illustrated with a high number of excellent, large color pics.
Unless I err, at least one of the authors used to be the leading rug expert working for the well known German auction house Fritz Nagel.

kind regards
Pierre

[Kay Dee]

Originally Posted by Pierre Galafassi

Vol 4 of Oriental Rugs, Antique Collector’s Club, deals with Turkish/Ottoman Rugs and is authored by Kurt Zipper and Claudia Fritsche.

Hi Pierre, thanks for that, seems book seller has it wrongly listed then!

Originally Posted by Pierre Galafassi


IMHO it is well worth owning, illustrated with a high number of excellent, large color pics.

Not for me, as only interested in Vol 5 on Turkmans at present, but thanks for recommendation anyway.

[Pierre Galafassi]

Hi Kay,

As far as books dealing with Turkmen rugs are concerned, I believe that you can hardly find better ones than those suggested already by Steve, Chuck and Marvin.
My personal favorite is Vanishing Jewels: In addition to superb pics of museum-quality rugs it also contains highly interesting essays on Turkmen ethnology, sociology, weaving/ use of textiles, and dyeing (written by true luminaries like O’bannon, Wood, Irons and Mushak). Nothing to do with the rug-lore which is too often found in rug books. You are surely well aware, Kay, that one must always take rug literature cum grano salis.

In addition to Steve’s, Chuck’s and Marvin’s selection, I’d mention two other books which I keep reading with pleasure:
- Turkmenische Teppiche by Werner Loges (In German, I don’t know whether there is an English version).
- Carpets of the People of Central Asia by V.G. Moshkova (The translator being G.W. O’Bannon, who wrote that Moshkova’s work was among the most thorough and reliable issued by Russian’s experts ).

Best regards
Pierre

About the definition of 'Russian expert' during Soviet time, please check with Steve (:-))

[Joel Greifinger]

Whats the difference / is it even from the same 'set'?

K.D.,

From what I can glean, Orienttepiche Band 4: Turkmenische Teppiche Battenburg Antiquitäten-Kataloge was from the original German series that the Antique Collectors Club reprinted in English, adding Parsons' book on Afghanistan as Volume 3. In both series, the date of publication of the Jourdan text is given as 1989.

So, not the same set, but probably the same book.

Joel

[Kay Dee]

Thanks first to a moderator for moving posts from other thread.

And thanks second for all the input folks!

And thanks third Joel for yours, maybe I buy it then just for the pics as the copy I can get of said name is in German but is really rather cheap. So for pics alone............... .a steal it seems if it is the 'same' book so to speak.

Pierre, I have ordered a couple of the books the guys recommended, a couple just too expensive even 2nd hand though.............. .................. but I gotta say, IMHO you just have to see these two 'new' books by Elana Tsareva to make a real judgement on what 'may' be the top of the Turkmen book heap these daze. Well, no offense meant, but I think so anyway from my relatively shallow Turkmen perspective.

[Pierre Galafassi]

Originally Posted by Kay Dee

I gotta say, you just have to see these two 'new' books by Elana Tsareva to make a real judgement on what may be the top of the Turkmen book heap these daze. :

Sounds promising. Will give these new Tsareva books a try too.

Regards
Pierre

[Steve Price]

Kay Dee

Moving the posts was no problem - just takes a couple of mouse clicks.

I haven't seen either of the new Tsareva Turkmen books. What is it about them that leads you to believe that they might now be the top of the Turkmen book heap? In what respects? Breadth and quality of the images? Scholarship of the text? Ethnographic background information?

Not being snarky - I'd ask pretty much the same questions if somebody said he thought a particular book might be the best one on, say, antique cars or postage stamps.

Steve Price

[Chuck Wagner]

Steve

I can speak to the Kingston collection volume: the color is great. And that's worth a lot.

Technical analyses are good as well, and missing in most Turkmen books.

Regards
Chuck

[Kay Dee]

Steve, image quality truly excellent / superb in both books, although more than a few carpets 'ruined' somewhat IMHO by making double page spreads of them in Kingston Collection book, when single page would have sufficed, as it does more than adequately in Hoffmeister Collection book. Probably more descriptive text in Kingston though (as half Hoffs in German) while possibly more images in Hoffs, given advantage was fully taken by using single pages for photos. And last but not least, Tsareva consider a leading expert today on said Turkmen pieces, and both books published 'recently' i.e. 2016 and 2011 respectively..

Quite possibly you experts may find fault here or there, but they are lavishly produce books with what appears to be copious amounts of info on selected tribes, especially in Kingston, but as I said, while photo reproduction same in both books (i.e. excellent), Hoffs layout better (as no double page spreads). So a small 'drawback' along different lines in both books, but still what I'd call excellent, judged against any rug book I have seen. Of course, I haven't looked much at books on Turkmans, (or Beluchis, etc, for that matter) since the 1990s, but................. .......I do have a lot of others.

[Steve Price]

Hi Kay

Thanks. They sound excellent.

Steve

[Rich Larkin]

Not to be a cynical curmudgeon. But I happened idly to pick up a copy of Oriental Rug Review the other day and happened upon an article by Murray Eiland (Vol. 8, No. 2 - 1988) which called into question a great deal of the 'scholarship' surrounding Turkoman rugs before and during the 'boom' of the late '70s - early '80s. It called into question the entire body of lore about the rugs, such as the totemic significance and importance of tribal guls, a great deal of which orbits around the work of Moshkova. He wasn't purporting to refute it so much as point out that much of it, layer upon layer, was the product of theorization based on very limited evidence.

Of course, as every ruggie knows, one can change the narrative every single day, and the rugs don't change a single hair. Meanwhile, there is nothing like great plates.

[Kay Dee]

Folks, what say you of this book?

Oriental Rugs Volume 3: The Carpets of Afghanistan by R D Parsons, published 1983.

[Filiberto Boncompagni2]

That book is a must if you are interested in oldish and recent Afghan production.

Besides... As Marx said,

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog it's too dark to read

Groucho Marx, of course.

[Kay Dee]

Thanks Filberto, I think I have ordered it.

Think you say? Well I have ordered quite a few books of late and have somewhat lost track of whos who, and whats what, well in my head at least.

What does Groucho have to say about that?

[Chuck Wagner]

Kay,

Dick Parsons, now deceased, was always cautious in his attributions, preferring to handle as well as look. Thus his descriptions - while lacking the technical analytical data we like to see here - are very practical. And the figures are plentiful, bur often require a close look (and careful read) when using the book as a reference when examining a rug.

I have found it useful on many occasions. For what it's worth, I have the entire series.

Regards
Chuck

[Kay Dee]

Thanks Chuck (and Filberto) for your comments.

I did / have subsequently discovered that I had ordered it, and unknowingly, the 1990 revised edition to boot, which states "........This revised edition of the most detailed analysis of the Afghanistan rug production ever published is a consequence of the civil war and the resultant changes within that country's carpet industry. The author provides a new introduction and two additional chapters dealing with the huge refugee problem and consequent changes in carpet production. Forty supplementary colour plates illustrates and enhance new material which, combined with the original text and illustrations guide the keen collector and first-time buyer through a labyrinth of fascinating choices. ' (Information taken from inside cover of dust jacket)"

Sometimes ya just get lucky!

[Kay Dee]

Well I posted an other post earlier today but seems it has been lost to cyberspace. Be that as it may, another book - besides the two that arrived yesterday and mentioned in the post that has, it seems, been lost / found wanting - arrived today and that is "Secrets Of the Black Tent by Brian MacDonald, 2017 edition".

And as far as presentation and the quality / quantity of the photos go, and (at least) the descriptions of certain rugs that I am familiar with, I'd have to say it is simply outstanding, repeat, OUTSTANDING!

Anyone else have it and care to comment?

[Steve Price]

Hi Kay

The post that never appeared on our public pages was blocked in the moderator queue because it contained remarks that I found unacceptable. If any others fail to reach public view you can assume that the reason is the same.

This isn't an invitation to discuss the matter in public or in private.

Steve Price

[Kay Dee]

OK, lets try this version then;

Having yesterday received both Diehr's Buluch book and Parsons Vol. 3 Carpets of Afghanistan - both that were recommended by members of this board - I must say I was delighted. So THANKS for the reco!

Be that as it may, on another topic altogether, and I quote Parson directly here "….. Good yarn soon develops a natural sheen with use and brushing, whilst normal exposure to sunlight will result in oxidation of dyestuffs. Natural dyestuffs oxidise rapidly and result sooner in that softness of tones which is so much sought after in older goods. However ..…………………. let us not forget they started off being very (my emphasis) new.”

(However, re Parsons statement above, re natural dyestuffs; I am not so sure I agree that ‘all’ natural dyestuffs oxidise rapidly, but maybe some else has something to add , i.e. confirm or deny, that?)

And he goes on to say that (newer) “……………..pieces are quite often found whose dysestuffs have oxidised especially quickly and have thus assumed the mellowness associated with age.”

I think he says a lot in both the above that cant be denied (although has been by exalted members of this forum).

And both underlined are now my emphasis above.