Posted by Richard Tomlinson on 12-21-2004 04:56 AM:

A challenge !!

Riot of colour

Here is a blitzed khorjin bagface that I bought on ebay a while back. Although complete, I think it qualifies as a wreck.

When I received it I was disappointed to find that there was a synthetic dye (the red). I believe only one dye is hot, though I may be wrong.

As I paid next to nothing for the piece, and realized it was not exactly a quality piece, I decided to run it under BOILING water to test the colours.

The suspicious red ran a little, though I wouldn’t call it a 'bleeder' like some dyes.. Moreover, there is no fading of any colours front to back- all the other colours look natural though the pink is a colour I am not familiar with. I have seen a few NWP pieces that have a similar pink and I am guessing it is OK.

This khorjin has light brown and cream wool warps and cotton wefts. The border is similar to those found in Jaff Kurd pieces and some Shahsavan piled bagfaces. The field looks 'Persian' to me. I suspect this is a Kurdish khorjin, NWP, circa 1920-30. The piece is extremely thin and floppy - it is well worn and I would have thought it much older but for the hot dye.

What I find amazing about this piece is the range of colours. I count no less than 16 colours. As I said before, I believe only the bright red is a 'hot' colour. The colours are:

1. hot red
2. pink (X2?)
3. white (cotton wefts)
4. cream (wool)
5. black
6. light blue
7. dark blue
8. light grass green
9. olive green
10. dark forest green
11. chocolate brown
12. caramel brown
13. light camel brown
14. light biscuit brown
15. copper red/brown
16. yellow (X2?)

I challenge Turkotekers to present a bag (older than 60-70 years) that has
more colours !!!!!!!!

Richard Tomlinson

Posted by Rob van Wieringen on 12-21-2004 08:12 AM:


I think it is your task as a moderator to ban Mr. Tomlinson from Turkotek for using indecent language! He is BOILING our little babies! He even seems proud of it , by using capitals!


As long as you are still on this site : Please, never use boiling water!
It can cause bleeding even of natural colours, as was stated not so long ago in another Salon.

I also must say that I do not recognize your "hot red" and considering the diversity of good colours, it could be made well in the 19th. century.
I think it could be a Shahsavan bag-front.


Rob van Wieringen.

Posted by Steve Price on 12-21-2004 09:28 AM:

Hi Rob

It's his bagface, so I guess he can boil it if he wants to. I read his report of that little experiment with great interest, though. I would have expected not only color runs, but shrinking with the result being uneven tensions and odd dimensions. That's one tough bagface, partner. Beaten up, but not defeated.


Steve Price

Posted by Chuck Wagner on 12-21-2004 11:25 AM:

Hi all,

Well, we don't know if those are pre-boil or post-boil images, do we ??


Chuck Wagner

Posted by Richard Tomlinson on 12-21-2004 09:01 PM:

Hello Rob

Yes - that's right, I BOILED it and I have 16 other pieces too

which I will boil unless you pay me $1 000 000 in crisp US

dollar wait, they are worthless... make it EUROS :-)

Chuck - this is post-boil. I had it on the stove for about 3 hours in a big black pot. I did make sure to stir every half hour.

Once it had dried, I steam ironed it to get it flat again.

richard tomlinson

Posted by Filiberto Boncompagni on 12-22-2004 05:46 AM:

That's one tough bagface, partner.

After three hours in the pot, hard-boiled should be more appropriate…


Posted by Rob van Wieringen on 12-22-2004 07:02 AM:

Hi Richard,

I expect you to want only laundried money...........

Rob van Wieringen

Posted by Patrick Weiler on 12-23-2004 10:38 PM:

Wicked Witch of the West


It was very brave of you to boil your rug. I suspect that if I did the same with this Kurdish rug with a similar border (the inner border) it would melt as surely as the Wicked Witch of the West did:

Mine has bars between the rosettes instead of "darts".

The botehs in the field are filled with deuterium, an isotope of hydrogen with one proton and one neutron in the nucleus having an atomic weight of 2.014.

This is not a bag, but it has 8 colors. Twice as big and half as many colors. So far I am the winner!

Patrick Weiler