TurkoTek Discussion Boards

Subject  :  Wham!
Author  :  Vincent Keers
Date  :  10-08-2000 on 04:57 p.m.
Dear Richard, Thank you for this salon. I didn't know there are such rare beauties around. If I look closely at the your latest conquest, it's as if I'm looking at the Taj Mahal in India, bathing in the sun. Can't it be from India? I could not find any criteria by wich I could exclude it from India. The flower forms seem to be literary extracted from the Taj Mahal. Especially the halve-moon shaped flowers. And the strange design right under the arch could be the Koh-I-Nor, stolen by the English. But maybe I'm mesjoge? Best regards, Vincent

Subject  :  RE:Wham!
Author  :  Richard+Farber
Date  :  10-08-2000 on 06:08 p.m.
Dear Vincent, Of course you could be right. I don't know what the Mughal embroideries of 1750 -1800, for example, looked like . . .I know the look of the earlier ones and the later ones, but . . . There is a feel about this piece that seems inspired by the Saz style, something about the serated acanthus leaves, the way the stems connect to the flowers that made me think Ottoman from the moment I saw it. Have I made a mistake? Also the piece does not have the form of the arch which you see in Indian embroideries, and in a latter forms in some Central Asian pieces. Have a look at the two bottom pieces in the first group of four. What about the carpets, is there a way of determining origin from the form of the arch? Met vriendlijke groeten Richard

Subject  :  RE:Wham!
Author  :  Marvin Amstey
Date  :  10-09-2000 on 09:04 a.m.
mamstey1@rochester.rr.com Perhaps not the form, but when I see embroidery with metal-wrapped-silk as described in Richard's piece, Ottoman comes to mind before Mughal. What I don't know, and why my first reaction is Ottoman, is whether there are Mughal pieces with metal embroidery. The only other metal embroidery with which I am familiar is from East Turkestan and China. One last point, I recall admiring a beautiful quilted Indian niche-designed embroidery such as is in Richard's collection at Clive Roger's room at ACOR last year. He called it late 18th century. Perhaps it is already in your collection, Richard. Best regards, Marvin

Subject  :  RE:Wham!
Author  :  Richard+Farber
Date  :  10-11-2000 on 01:58 p.m.
Greetings, Vincent Keers in previous forums was interested in the Chinese conection. The idea intrigued me and realizeing that I didn't know anything about the subject started looking for literature. The Metropolitan Museum of Art in cooperation with the Cleveland Museum of Art did a show on Central Asian and Chinese Textiles called "When Silk Was Gold", the book is amazing. The periods covered and the many textiles shown are from 200BC to the end of the Ming dynasty, 1644. Vincent, I believe this book is a must for you and for anyone looking for scources of motives that appear in carpets. But back to this salon . . . Metal wrapped silk thread is also found in the embroideries of 18th century Persia; although not in the arch form shown in this salon. [it could be that the example from the precious salon has metal threads.] Mr. Amstey, I don't know Mr. Rogers. If you are in contact with him perhaps you could ask him to supply an image of the piece that you saw to the salon. After further consideration I think there might be basic design types of arch design in the niche form: those from straight lines and those with a arabesque like form. An hypothosis might be that Indo-persian arches tend to be arabesques and Turkish ones straight .. .Is there this correlation in knotted rugs and kilims? If this turns out to be true than we can see that the 19th cent. Asian forms had two inflows . . . because some niches there are of straight lines [those that are from Kernima and Bukhara] and others with Arabesque like arches [from Shakeryzebs or Samarkand]

Powered by UltraBoard 2000 <http://www.ub2k.com/>