TurkoTek Discussion Boards

Subject  :  The Border
Author  :  Bob Emry
Date  :  08-29-2000 on 12:15 a.m.
Hello all: I'm intrigued by the border of Daniel's Memling gul rug, which is seen again in the Kazak rug at the beginning of part 2 of the salon, and again at the end of part 2 in the Housego mafrash panel (I assume this is pile rather than soumak). In his discussion at the beginning of another thread, Michael Wendorf mentions two other rugs with this border: one advertised by Peter Pap (HALI, No. 86, page 55), and a fragment previously in the Rudnick collection (I believe this might be the same one shown in Skinner Auction catalog, April 23, 1994, lot 171). I can cite pictures of two other examples: One is another long rug, very similar to the Pap rug, illustrated in Jon Thompson's "Oriental Carpets from the Tents, Cottages and Workshops of Asia" on page 79. The other is a "Shahsavan Soumak Cargo Bag Side Panel" (Skinner auction catalog, April 20, 1995, lot 89). This soumak panel is remarkably similar in both border and field designs to the Housego panel that Daniel illustrates (each has 3 large memling guls, unusual in each having only two hooks on each quadrant, and the field ground filled with "Z" devices). I can offer another example that clearly belongs to the same group (design group at least, if not ethnic) as the Pap and Thompson rugs and the Skinner (?Rudnick) fragment: The picture here shows only one end but imagine it with 10 medallions: The vital statistics: Yarn: spin Z Size: 44" x 124"(112cm x 315cm) (has been reduced by about 3.5") Knot: symmetrical, H7pi V 7pi 49psi; H29/dm V29/dm 841/sdm Warps: 3 ply wool mixed white, tan, brown. Often two white and one tan or brown. No warp depression. Wefts: dark red wool, usually 4 picks (occasionally more, especially near edges) Selvage: 2 units (4,4) reinforded with extra selvage wool yarn, also 4,4 but sometimes the reinforcing yarn also circles the last warp with knots-reinforcing yarn same color as ground wefts. The border design is identical to all those mentioned above, including the rosettes, and the angular brackets. As Daniel mentioned, the border rosettes are superficially similar to Talish border rosettes. They are also reminiscent of rosettes seen on Qashqai rugs and bags (for example, often in the four corners of the field of bagfaces with the characteristic large hooked diamond). And they are also superficially similar to the rosettes seen in the field of swastika or pinwheel kazaks. Despite the superficial similarities, these rosettes are different and very characteristic. I hope other contributors will be able to cite other examples, but at least in all those I've seen this specific rosette invariably occurs with the brackets. Housego suggested that her mafrash face was probably made by Shahsavan. Thompson suggested that the rug he illustrated was Shahsavan. Pap labelled his rug Shahsavan. The soumak mafrash face (Skinner catalog) was identified as Shahsavan. This specific border is the common element. Is this the basis for Shahsavan attribution? I don't think most of us would balk at the Shahsavan attribution for the soumak mafrash face. And we might agree that Daniel's Kazak rug with this border is NOT Shahsavan. We are left with the others; probably we all have quite definite opinions about what they are NOT, but can we determine through shared design and structure how to attribute them? Clearly, same design does not necessarily mean same provenance, but similarity must be important at some level.

Subject  :  RE:The Border
Author  :  Daniel Deschuyteneer
Date  :  08-30-2000 on 11:04 a.m.
daniel.d@infonie.be GROUP 3 – the rosette border group - Dear Bob and you all, Thanks for your interesting thoughts and references. I think that these two constructed pictures containing your references will help into the discussion. Picture constructed with close-up of, from left to right: 1/ Peter Pap (HALI, No. 86, page 55) – Shahsavan - 2/ Skinner Auction catalog, April 23, 1994, lot 171, fragment previously in the Rudnick collection – labeled Shasavan 3/ Jon Thompson's "Oriental Carpets from the Tents, Cottages and Workshops of Asia" on page 79 – probably Shahsavan - 4/Bob’s "interlaced rosette border" – Shahsavan? - Related soumak mafrash panel labeled Shahsavan Top: Skinner auction catalog, April 20, 1995, lot 89 – Bob’s comments: Each has 3 large memling guls, unusual in each having only two hooks on each quadrant, and the field ground filled with "Z" devices Bottom: Housego’s Shahsavan mafrash panel (Tribal Rugs plate 8) – size 46cm x 97cm - 1’6" x 3’ As you noticed all these pieces are labeled Shahsavan. As this board is visited by Shahsavan experts I am curious to see what think about. Do we have for once a group of pile rugs that would be really woven by Shahsavan tribes? Let us pay attention do the structure of the rug Bob offers here: Bob’s "interlaced rosette border" structure analysis: Yarn: spin Z Size: 44" x 124"(112cm x 315cm) (has been reduced by about 3.5") Size ratio 1/3 Knot: symmetrical, H7pi V 7pi 49psi; H29/dm V29/dm 841/sdm Warps: 3 ply wool mixed white, tan, brown. Often two white and one tan or brown. No warp depression. Wefts: dark red wool, usually 4 picks - occasionally extra interlacing along the edges. Selvage: 2 units (4,4) reinforced in two groups with extra selvage red wool yarns. Sometimes the reinforcing yarns also interlace the first ground warp. It is worth noticing that the structure of Bob’s rug is EXACTLY the same one as the structure of the first Azerbaidjiani group we have isolated in another thread. The only differences appearing only in the color scheme used. As a rfeminder, the characteristics of the "Group 1-Azerbaidjiani" rugs are: Runner format – mean ratio 1/3 Pile: long and silky symmetrical knots - 56psi to 79psi - Warps: 2 or 3 ply white or mixed wool – no depression. Wefts: dark red or brown wool – 2 to 6 picks – no information about eventual weft crossing Reinforced selvage (selvage warps interlaced by the ground wefts and reinforced with interlacing additional yarns) Ends: no information Design: gul forms and other old Turkish devices Color: characteristic apricot and light yellowish green as well as light blue. Frequent use of extremely corrosive dark brown color. Would this be the usual structure of Shahsavan pile rugs? We don’t notice here the "wavy warps" once pinpointed by Wendell in a long rug having a somewhat Kurdish look and a lack of weft ease. Were these wavy warps just weaving errors? Did such characteristic "interlaced rosettes and corner brackets" borders migrate from the Caucasus to Azerbaidjian or vice-versa ? I haven’t the answer. Thanks, Daniel

Subject  :  RE:The Border
Author  :  Patrick Weiler
Date  :  08-30-2000 on 01:14 p.m.
Daniel, Bob and all, The "pointing arrows"/"rosette" border in the memling rug is familiar in another way, too. The photo below shows the center of the medallion from an Anatolian bag of the synthetic dye era. It, too, shows the "pointing arrows" and swastika-like "arms".

Subject  :  RE:The Border
Author  :  Patrick+Weiler
Date  :  08-30-2000 on 01:25 p.m.
jpweil00@gte.net The Border, Part Two: Sorry, I hit the "reply" button instead of the "preview" button! Her is the rest of the thread: The photo below shows the whole bagface from the detail in the above posting. You will note that the design has been expanded to include outward-pointing arrows at the extreme ends of the inward-pointing arrows. Was the smaller rosette form expanded here? Was the device in this bag shrunk down for use as a border motif? You may note the resemblance between this bag and Wendels beautiful Shahsavan flatwoven bagface, along with many similar Shahsavan bagfaces. This one, however, is pile woven with symmetric knots, 2 or 3 weft picks, undyed or red, and two ply undyed wool warps:
This bag relates to Daniel's question: Is shared design a basis for common ethnic attribution? John Collins, in the recent Hali, notes that the Bidjar area governors were Turk and brought the Ushak-type designs into the NW Persian area for use in locally made rugs. The memling gul is famous from Anatolian rugs seen in paintings from many centuries ago. The Shasavan were recruited from many areas, including Anatolia. The design may have migrated with the Turkish Shahsavan, back into Persia. Patrick Weiler

Subject  :  RE:The Border
Author  :  Daniel Deschuyteneer
Date  :  08-30-2000 on 01:35 p.m.
daniel.d@infonie.be Dear all, In the second part of my Salon I wrote that I didn’t know if the "interlaced rosette" motif seen in the borders of my Kazak rug and the other Northwest Persian rugs actually illustrated in previous postings, also appeared in Anatolian rugs. Here are two photos showing this motif in the center of the field of two Anatolian yastiks illustrated in Brian Morehouse’s book, YASTIKS. From left to right plate 77 – Central Anatolian yastiks probably Kurdish plate112 – Eastern Anatolia - Sivas Now, as expected, we have illustrations of the same design appearing in the three areas. Does it have any ethnic significance? Considering what Michael said in previous posting, probably not. All these illustrations still don’t tell us where this design is coming from: the warp substitution weave or an old heritage from the Coptic tradition?. If some reader has an opinion about this it would be best to open a new thread on this topic. Thanks, Daniel

Subject  :  RE:The Border
Author  :  Christoph+Huber
Date  :  09-03-2000 on 09:06 a.m.
huber-ch@pilatusnet.ch Dear Daniel Here is an other one with the same border:
For technical details you may go to the website of the Balch Institute By the way we Turkomaniacs would call a little bit slim variant of this rosette a kochak, wouldn't we? Kind regards, Christoph

Subject  :  RE:The Border
Author  :  Filiberto
Date  :  09-04-2000 on 03:44 a.m.
filibert@go.com.jo Dear Daniel, Found another one with your border: Shahsavan runner, NWP, XIX century, cm 322x107, lot 159, Christie’s London, Spring (April?) 2000. I’ll try to post directly my bad scanning without bothering Steve (I do not have a website, but may be I found another way around) If it does not work, try this link: http://if.yimg.com/f/f5ec5e66/h/13a29434/Rug.jpg Best regards, Filiberto Boncompagni

Subject  :  RE:The Border
Author  :  Filiberto
Date  :  09-04-2000 on 03:46 a.m.
No way, it seems I have to bother Steve! Filiberto

Subject  :  Filiberto Boncompagni's Image
Author  :  Steve Price
Date  :  09-04-2000 on 07:56 a.m.
sprice@hsc.vcu.edu Dear Filiberto, Here's the image. It's no bother at all. Steve Price

Subject  :  RE:The Border
Author  :  Mike Tschebull
Date  :  09-04-2000 on 09:37 p.m.
Responding to Bob and Daniel's posts - Take a look, if you haven't already, at plate 25 and related text in "Rugs of the Peasants and Nomads of Anatolia", Brueggemann and Boehmer, 1983, surely one of the half dozen rug books - if that were the limit - any informed ruggie would want to have with him were he marooned on a desert island. That group of rugs you both cite certainly has pile-woven designs that appear exactly in apparent Azarbayjani nomad carrying bags. You have to ask yourself why nomads would weave monster rugs like the Pap piece, or very long ones like the Thompson kennereh. Maybe, if you looked into relevant anthropological issues, you'd conclude those rugs were woven by settled peoples, possibly under nomad control. But why aren't there more such instances of complex design transfer? Ya gotta wonder...and not have fixed ideas in this area. My

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