TurkoTek Discussion Boards

Subject  :  Another related kilim
Author  :  Wendel Swan
Date  :  03-14-2000 on 03:44 p.m.
wdswan@erols.com Dear Robert, A comparable two-piece kilim with grounds of alternating colors is published in Jurg Rageth's Anatolian Kilims & Radiocarbon Dating (1999). It was previously published by Rageth in 1991 and by Mellaart, Hirsch and Balpinar in 1989. It is said to be comparable to plate 24 in Turck's 1995 publication. Rageth attributes this example to "Central Anatolia, Nevsehir/Karapinar area" while illustrating related kilims with serrated medallions and attributes them as Central Anatolia - perhaps Cappadocia. This piece is woven in two panels and the decorated bands are done in what I consider to be quite handsome polychrome - rather than the simple brown and white of Robert's piece. Rageth gives the radiocarbon age as 205 +/- 50 years BP, with the calibrated age of 1639 - 1824 (74%) and 1828 - 1886 (7.9%). Most collectors (and I am included) generally love expanses of ivory. I find, however, the alternating ground colors of the Rageth and Vok examples to be more appealing personally, as are the relative lack of filler motifs in the fields and the multiple colors of the decorative bands. I cannot speculate as to how these differences may relate to age or geographic origin. In the Rageth and Vok kilims, the complexity of the secondary motifs perfectly complements the simplicity of the serrated medallions. To me, this elevates them to the level of masterpieces. By saying so, I am not denigrating Robert's kilim in any way. It is beautiful and I only wish that I had gotten to the Philadelphia dealer first. Regards, Wendel

Subject  :  RE:Another related kilim
Author  :  Robert+Torchia
Date  :  03-14-2000 on 04:33 p.m.
Wendel: Greetings and thanks for the input. In fact I mentioned this kilim and cited Rageth's book in the second sentence of the second paragraph of my article. You saved me from the task of hunting for a scan. I believe in a footnote to that text Rageth mentions another kilim that is closely related to the one he illustrates. The two piece type is beautiful, but I prefer the stark simplicity and power generated by the single row of serrated medallions. Daniel found an example of a "Karapinar" with which I was totally unfamiliar. Regards, RWT

Subject  :  RE: Age and C-14 Dating
Author  :  Steve Price
Date  :  03-14-2000 on 04:54 p.m.
sprice@hsc.vcu.edu Dear Anyone, Without wanting to rehash the same old stuff about C-14 dating, the kilim here presents a good example of why I am not bowled over by it. The statement in Wendel's post is, Rageth gives the radiocarbon age as 205 +/- 50 years BP, with the calibrated age of 1639 - 1824 (74%) and 1828 - 1886 (7.9%). That is, ignoring the four year period between 1824 and 1828, we can be a little more than 80% certain that the piece was made between 1639 and 1886. The 18% worth of probabilities left over are, presumably, apportioned at both ends of that range. I'd say that all we know with a high degree of certainty from the C-14 analysis is that the piece almost surely predates World War I. And I think we'd know that whether the C-14 results exist or not. Fire away. Steve Price

Subject  :  RE:Another related kilim
Author  :  Robert+Torchia
Date  :  03-14-2000 on 06:55 p.m.
In response to Steve's critique of carbon dating, I too must voice some doubts. The window of time during which any of these carbon-dated kilims were putatively woven is often so long as to be inconclusive. Often an experienced dealer like my friend in Philadelphia will offer a dating based on his expertise and experience in the trade that commands great respect. A very discriminating collector of my acquaintance who has a stunning collection of Anatolian kilims once told me that she was convinced that none of them were made before 1800. When one came up for auction a couple of years ago with some ridiculously early date attached to it I expressed surprise. The same experienced collector told me the owners had shopped it around to a multitude of carbon dating people and chose the earliest to enhance the appeal. There is too much emphais on age and fanciful thinking in regard to kilims. But I enjoyed Rageth's new book and recommend it to those interested in the subject.

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