Re: Talish?

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Posted by George O'Bannon on August 04, 1999 at 17:51:41:

In Reply to: Re: Talish? posted by Vincent Keers on August 02, 1999 at 18:10:24:

: : : Dear Vincent and you all,

: : : I am always glad to meet European (I am Belgian) on this site, hoping you will continue to participate in our discussions.

: : : When I proposed a Gendge attribution for your rug it was only a guess based only on similarities in design and colour scheme, without any structural information's and not having handled the rug. I agree with you that such rugs could have been woven in Anatolia.

: : : You noticed that Wendel's rug has minor borders very similar as minor borders found in Talish rugs, and you are perfectly right.

: : : Similarities in design are helpful but they are rarely the clue. Structure, type of wool and colour scheme are better guide lines.

: : : I have seen this type of minor borders in many eastern south Caucasian rugs as well as North west Persian rugs and rugs woven by Turkish tribes, and as Talesh was occupied by Turks it isn't astonishing that they used this kind of borders

: : : A Talish attribution may be refuted on design and structural characteristics.

: : : 1/ Talish rugs are far more finely knotted and the knot count rarely drops below 1000 kpsd or 63 kpsi.

: : : 2/ Alternated depressed warps is a common feature.

: : : 3/ Wendel's rug lacks a characteristic feature of the Talish family. The edges reinforced by mostly blue, sometimes red wefts protrude into the field in the shape of long 5-10 cm long wedges. Marla Mallet noticed that the wefts protrusions interlaced pairs of ground warps and asked herself if it was a peculiar feature of the Talish rug family. Look at woven structure updates on her web site.

: : : Last I have added some picture to permit you to make border comparisons if you haven't the referenced books.

: : : Cordially,

: : : Daniel

: : Dear Daniel,
: : If we read the salon topic and all the reactions,
: : we see a lot of images only because off the similar
: : design. Did I overlook some basic structural analyses?
: : I we don't know, and if the structure doesn't allow
: : us to identify exactly, we can only guess. I allways start with deleting the options wich are
: : impossible based on what I see.
: : The brown/white warps, the woolen wefts give me a clue. That's all. It may well be that a sound
: : analysis of the colours, can give extra info.
: : What about the layout of the design? Maybe the rug
: : is coming from the opposite shore of the Caspian
: : see: Kazakhstan, Usbekistan/Samarkant, Kirgizstan.
: : (My Chinese feeling is getting stronger, I can't help it). The difference between me and you all is
: : that you're all looking to the south and I'm looking to the east.
: : But if you have any structural analysis wich comply with the one given, the problem is solved.

: : With kind regards, Vincent

: Oi!
: I mentioned woolen wefts? Cotton wefts.
: With kind regards, Vincent

Dear Vincent
When I first looked at this rug, it seemed like a Talish/Moghan area rug because of the rosette border that is certainly Talish. The cotton wefts also indicated that region, and the knot count is within range. My thought was that if there was evidence of red or blue "anchor" wefts used for the reinforced selvage, this would be a very definitive clue. These wefts are often anchored into the pile weaving as much as six inches, so they should still be evident if they were used for the original selvage. Perhaps Wendell could look at the back of the rug and let us know. I do know of a yellow ground rug with this pattern and about the same size that is either Kazak or Karabagh.

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