Posted by Jim Allen on June 27, 1999 at 09:50:13:
In Reply to: Re: Sources of error in Carbon-14 dating? posted by Tom Cole on June 26, 1999 at 09:19:05:
: : : : : Dear Jim,
: : : : : I offer the following opinions:
: : : : : 1. Cases are never closed in academic circles. That's one of the things that makes us so irritating.
: : : : : 2. The fact that some highly respected person agrees with it is not a persuasive argument for the truth of an assertion. The basis for that person's belief might be very persuasive, of course. That's why the basis for his opinion is more important than his name.
: : : : : 3. There has been no argument on this board about whether pre-1700 Turkmen textiles exist. There have been inquiries about how we might know whether they exist. I believe such questions are reasonable and that they have answers that are not beyond the comprehension of some of our readers.
: : : : : 4. Having gotten similar results from analyzing twice is better than only doing it once, and a lot better than getting very disparate results on two tries. But twice is still a very small number of replications and no lab slob in my field would accept it as final.
: : : : : 5. The importance of reproducibility of results depends on the sources of error, which is why I have come back to that question several times. If the errors are from random sources (intrinsic to the instrumentation, variations between samples, weighing errors, etc.), then repeating the measurements on new samples eventually leads to a mean value close to the true value. That doesn't happen with systemic errors. For instance, my bathroom scale is about 2 pounds off, and will give you the same erroneous weight every time you step on it. That's an example of systemic error. Measurements can be very reproducible (that is, highly precise), but inaccurate.
: : : : : There may a revolution in progress, but I think it is prudent to know the facts before accepting the conclusions. Those of us who think this way will miss the first couple of trains going into the future. On the other hand, most apparently revolutionary findings turn out to be flawed, so we don't spend a lot of time riding on trains that are going the wrong way, either. That's the tradeoff.
: : : : : I still hope that some reader will explain what the sources of error in C-14 dating are, and give their approximate magnitudes.
: : : : : Steve Price
: : : : : Steve, for what it is worth, Kajitani says the greatest contamination is washing a rug. She asserts that her 20 years of obseration have indicated that washing a rug can make its C-14 date up to 100 years earlier. I personally have wondered about biologic contamination and know for certain that it is in sample preparation and technique that the qualitative percision in C-14 dating is achieved. In point of fact ,after seeing and studying 300+ year old Turkomen material under high magnification, I can tell you that any person so "educated" will be able to differentiate the material. My own thesis concerning overall dimensionality of representation is only lacking sufficient samples to be easily understood. The reason for the whole debate, in my eyes, is the fact that Turkoman material might yet sit atop the aesthetic pyramid in peoples minds and if it does it will have achieved that zenith in our adult lifetimes. That is truly extraordinary and of course carries the passive reward of ego trandference and monetary transference as well. James Allen
: : : Dear Jim:
: : : Or non passive as the case may be. I will add that I doubt the reason for Rageth's work (or Kajitani's and the Met's)and the debate it raises is your belief that Turkoman material might yet sit atop the aethestic pyramid or that any of this work proves your thesis concerning overall dimensionality of representation, whatever that means. Turkoman weaving can be extremely beautiful. I would submit that it is different from classical persian weaving whether or not by classical we are referring to Safavid carpets. Old Turkomans and Safavid carpets need not be compared apples to apples. However, in your post you implied, and in a previous post stated expressly, that "classical" Turkoman weavings are the equal or are aesthetically superior to Safavid carpets. Certainly, this rises to the level of hyperbole. Some old Turkomans have limited but lush color, others have beautifully subtle and sophisticated drawing including a good sense of dimensionality. A few may have both. But to compare them the greatest Safavid weavings wherein 3 and 4 planes of scrolling design exist in multiple shades and hues of 8 - 12 colors? I think we are getting carried away by ego transference.
: : : Kind regards, Michael Wendorf
: : : There are non-subjective aspects of aesthetics and dimensionality is certainly one of them. As far as I am concerned essentially all Safavid iconography is borrowed. It was borrowed from the already well established book binding industry with its leather tooled book covers and monumental stone works prevalent in the middle east. Nomadic aesthetics was similarily influenced in the beginning by Chinese textiles but it is where they went with the inspiration that seperates them. Turkoman weaving is mostly a system of designs that manage their internal energies, a true "map" of the universe so to speak. Safavid design celebrated a unique understanding of the universe in a crass representational style. The simple fact is their mental habits of perception and color preferences are very similar to our own while the true desert adapted nomads' perception is alien to ours and their designs are often 180 degrees out of phase with our understanding. The bottom line is that Turkoman weaving probably had developed the aesthetic of 3 dimensionality before it was developed in the west, in Rennaisence painting. No such sophisticed design aesthetic was developed in classical Persian weaving. Safavid weaving was all workshop production produced by large teams of specialists. It really isn't fair to compare them. As for the top of the pyramid? I will let the world decide that as it surely will in time.
: "Nomadic aesthetics was similarily influenced in the beginning by Chinese textiles ,,,," I agree with what you have to say, but this passage from your post requires some further thought. I think you probably know that, for the most part, the trasference of design occured in the opposite direction, from the nomadic cultures to sedentary Chinese society. I have never been a proponent of this idea propagated by Murray Eiland and believe quite the opposite. The silk textiles and their designs are thought to be a precursor or influence on Turkoman rug patterns. But who were the weavers of these early silks? Generally speaking, not the Han Chinese culture but rather peoples settled in the far western regions of what is today the politically delineated borders of China proper, people who are not Chinese but much closer ethnically and culturally to Central Asian peoples.
: Yes! I would definitely agree that the reason Turkomen adapted these roundrels was that they were "familiar". I doubt their creative success would have been so great had their inspiration been less than intimate. One big clue is the fact that Tekke Bird Asmalyks' iconography is a recognizable Han dynasty pictogram meaning "to hunt". The fineness and rareity of these objects combined with their differences in weave, size, and color suggests their having been produced over a long period of time. I suggest these special weavings signified the great Khans' mount at the critically important annual "great hunt". These massive undertakings were a rite of passage for young men wishing to establish themselves as men among men. It was here under scrutiny that ones horsemanship,archery,balance'speed,and agility were evaluated. The Han dynasty pictogram contains the combined images of a bow,an elongated toward the target arrow,two animals in this case dragonesque, and a bird on the drawstring signifying the birds critical association witht he "hunt". There is little doubt in my mind that the Tekke as a cultural entity had roots which went back that far. The mode of transmission would have been through the manic depressive mentally adapy shaman priests whose formidable tasks resulted in personages of the greatest power. The bird asmalyks contain exactly these images plus a vibrating bowstring and the bird had become very elaborated and elevated in importance as the bow is now on top of the bird. The arrangement contains the same elements. The animals have dropped a level in the composition. You can look at the pictogram in Turkoman Studies 1 page 212, fig, 443. The linkage with the chinese is strong. The only non Chinese people to ever sit on the throne of China was these nomadic horsemen.
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