Posted by Erol Abit on March 02, 1999 at 04:26:57:
In Reply to: Re: Artistic Growths Possible by Computerized Society? posted by Jerry Silverman on March 01, 1999 at 17:05:04:
: : Dear Jerry and All,
: : [I might not be able to follow this discussion because of my English, the philosophical and technical terms used due to the character of the topic and Jerry's American accent. You might have covered what I am saying now. If so, I apologize in advance.]
: : I think that particularly by means of the rugs and the webs where visual esthetic is among the most important criteria, the science and technology (leaded by the westerners in the last centuries) and the art, I imply the rug here, (leaded by the easterners more in the last c) are being Hand in Hand. This progress would be much faster if the people give the credits to the creators of real science and real art instead of supporting tasteless quick profits.
: : 1. Yes Jerry. I think one can be succesful to create a desired rug (also other things) ordered by a house decorator or by person via computer communications. Such rugs which will be made by a group study may even be quite artistic rugs. But the reailty says that The main obstacle in reaching such goals is that people who can do such things have not sufficient economical powers and those poor people live in fact in the future. We do not know what will be our profit at the end if we attempt to do such things and become successful. But I know what we will loose if we pass such oppurtinities. The quick profit makers will come into the field and they will take the profits again and again.
: : 2. The more rug we see The better deal we do. Isn't it? Ok Steve, priory touching the hands to the rugs is not possible on the web but doesn't the web help deciding you where to touch? For example, you have seen a new hereke rug (sample on my page) and if you liked it, we can meet and you can buy it without wasting the time that you would probably spend to search if there is such rug or not. (No I am not selling it because it is not mine and I don't know if it is sold or not now. I gave it just as an example.) Or I can do the same for one of your rug and buy if you sell after an initial process of seeing on the web.
: : 3. I learned a lot (Then I understood I know nothing as Sam says) from the webs and it is free information. I wonder how some journals such as Hal* which earns from buying&selling the information will be able to protect their positions if they are not planning to use the web.
: : As last, I'd like to make some comments on another aspect. "Artistic Growths is possble by our computerized rug society?"
: : Some days ago I've got an e-mail from an old (physically old but actually a young) collector. I'd like to begin with his words
: : "To be successful in the artistic achievement, you must have the proper soil. Nothing can grow in the Sahara desert. In the same way, for art to flourish it must have the proper socialogical climate. I fear that our computerized society with its dehumanized society is not conducive to artistic growth..." (were the html tags used in that way on the board?).
: : First I can just wish that our computerized society will not be conducive to artistic growth. It may even help the growth by opening new oppurtinities if the web or such communication tools, just the tools, of new societies are used in the correct way, in a constructive way. I also understand from these words that one who have used to have close contacts with rugs for very long time fears that computer is entering between him and rugs and then seperating them by a distance. But, I think one point is being missed. Jerry says that "No middle man anymore?" My response to this is that isn't the computer becoming the dealer of the current age by taking the positions of the middle man? I can think of many advantages and disadvantages of this new dealer. One of the advantages (may be considered as a disadvantage) is that I have no chance to hit him with the fist when I got nervous while communicating with a person and I can not take the risk of hitting this new dealer (computer) because it costed much to me.
: : Regards,
: : Erol
: Dear Erol,
: I understand and sympathize with your wish to hit your computer now and then. I've often thought mine would be more responsive with an occasional slap to the monitor. But I, too, have hesitated.
: Perhaps I didn't explain what I meant in my first point well enough. Here's what I envision the 'net helping to happen:
: 1) Local weavers establish their own web pages.
: a) They put pictures of rugs they have woven on their pages.
: b) They offer to make similar rugs for customers world-wide.
: c) International customers contact them and ask questions like:
: (1) I see you made rug #1 in a 4'x6' size. Can you make it as a 9'x12' size?
: (2) The blue in the field is too dark. I've attached a sample of the color of blue
: I'd like in my rug. Can you make the rug using this color?
: (3) I've attached a picture of a rug I'd like to own. Can you make one like this in
: a 9'x12' size with these blues and reds?
: 2) Local weaver reaches an agreement with a customer and ask for a deposit to pay for
: materials and part of the labor.
: 3) Local weaver sends pictures to the customer of the rug on the loom, making sure that the
: customer is pleased with the progress.
: 4) Local weaver sends pictures of the completed rug, final shearing, tying fringes, washing,
: and asks for final payment including shipping and insurance.
: 5) Customer gets rug, is delighted, tells friends, shows them pictures of the rug being made,
: and interests others in having rugs made in this manner.
: Technically, this could all be done right now. The only obstacles are the lack of trust between people who have never done business with each other and the lack of trust that some people still have with doing any business over the Internet. Both of these obstacles are diminishing as more and more people buy things over the Internet.
: That's what I mean about eliminating the middle man. This entire transaction could take place between the weaver and the final customer. (Of course, it could also take place between the customer and a middle man/manufacturer/importer/retail dealer, too.) Whether the first of these transactions takes place in one month or one year or one decade, it most assuredly will take place.
By my saying "the computer is a new dealer?", I meant "a functional change in the field?". It was a simplification of a philosophical thought. Ok, lets pass this.
Local weaver and dealer...
It seems that a local weaver herself can not perform all these alone. Because there is another obstacle in front of her. It is the, perhaps hardest, obstacle we forgat is that almost all the weavers are/will probably always be/ uneducated people who are/will never be able to use the new technologies of the years they live in. Also, even if they used such tools, they can not be busy with other things since they must be concentrated on the execution which takes their at least 8 hours with no-stop. So a local weaver will never be able to do all those what you mentioned in the near futures, maybe 10 years later. Now they need "help" of, for example me one as her brother or another person whom we can call an organizator or a dealer or whatever you call. In that case, the old mind dealers or middle men will disappear in the field unless they will be equipped with new technologies, internet etc. This change in the dealers' funtions can be thought as a small paradigm shift in how preforming their jobs?
The companies and organizations...
I think to perform all those you mentioned it will not be economically feasible for the large hand weaving factories, for big production companies.
Perhaps, all those procedures may be done well by a small organizational weaving group, by like-an atelier with 5-10 weavers or by a self-organized cooperative system. Only by these way, it may be feasible, I am not sure. For example, if I had some money and find a person who is willing to work and can use such technological tools there, it seems to me that this is the best way of achieving the success. And as you said, current technological tools are almost ready to do this. I am not sure if such remote weaving for HOUSE decoration is economically feasible. Not to take any risk, if I had a chance now I would begin with for SPECIAL weavings, ie the rugs which the owner wants it as a work of art that needs mastery, very well execution. So the higher price can match all the affords. This is why I bring "the art" to foreground of the field.
Hence my question "artistic growth is possible by computerized society?". And it was because such a remote art production needs a philosophical support before putting our steps further. Any mathematican, physican etc consults/discusses with the experts/philosophers of the field before they work on a new theory if they think it is new. I thought this question was very related to your topic, "paradigm shift or oxymoron." Is the remote artistic rug production possible and if possible, is this a shift?
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