A Modest Bag, But Where From?

Hi, all

Not wanting to be too parasitic on Turkotek's experts, I tried hard to make my own identification of this bag's area of origin. With no success. None of the hundreds of pieces I've viewed show this spare type of design.



I thought that the internal 'spearhead' borders resembled those on a couple of Baluch bags that featured in Turkotek Discussion Number 6, but Steve Price tells me that this 'mechadyl' design is very widespread in western and central Asia.

The central gul(?) may provide clues.





As you can see from the back, the 'white' was presumably a synthetic fugitive violet.



The bag is about two feet square. Colours are rich, abrashed red, and warm oatmeal brown, all the black borders being in flatweave, which accentuates the thick, lustrous knotted areas.



Knot structure is AsL and count per inch is approx 6 wide and about 12 high (the wefts are too tightly packed for my untrained eye to make an accurate reckoning).

Any info much appreciated

Regards

Windsor Chorlton

Empty space

Bonjour Windsor

Your bag makes me to think to the designs we can encounter in flat weaves of the Kurds of azerbaijan, in the Seneh and Bidjar area (see Tanavoli, Persian Flat weaves). In those flat weaves we can find the same use of the empty space magnifyed by the frame (a kind of window opened on the empty universe of the sky or of the desert) and by the use of a single object floating in the empty space. I think this design can have a mystic signification linked with the infinity of the desert and of the sky. We find it also in Caucasian design like Talish (the blue field can be also undertstood as water pond in a "paradise" garden).
There are also good Seneh rugs with wide field and sophisticated floating medalions (often the color of the field is a sand beige made with special undyed wool). I don't know if the ASL knot can be consistent with this attribution.

Amicales salutations à tous

back and Kelim

Windsor,

Can't tell from the pictures...the flatweave back doesn't look as if it belongs with the front. Is that orangish-brownish and oatmeal back sewn to the flatweave remains of the front portion? or is the back actually an integral part of the warps of the whole bag?

Gene

Bonjour Louis. Hi Gene

Louis' fascinating response transported me into a dreamlike state -- 'window opened on the empty universe', 'a single object floating in the empty space'. I'll follow up the references, but in the meantime, Louis, Je vous remercie beaucoup pour renseignements tres interessant.

Gene, glad to exchange words again. I take your point about the apparent mismatch between front and back, but having looked closer at the piece, I can say that the two halves are integral, sharing the same warps. A useful lesson in looking, and thanks for it.

Regards

Windsor

Another question

Windsor,

I'd love to see a close up of the back...the area where the holes are..the separation zone between oatmeal and orange-brown with a picture of the joining warps.

Also, you said the black borders are flatweave. Both of them on the face? Does this include the "crenilated battlement" black inside borders? Are they flat weave too? Is there corrosion in the black dye?

Why do you say the violet is synthetic? Somehow I got it into my head synthetic violet had to be much more stable than natural purple.

Gene

Hi Gene

Fuchsine is an early synthetic violet that is extremely light sensitive; was in use in parts of western Asia from about 1875 to about 1925. Other early synthetic violets were similarly unstable. Later dyes - say, from 1950 on - are much more resistant to fading from light.

Regards

Steve Price

Hi Gene

Steve has already answered your query about light-sensitive violets (aniline dyes used from the last half of the 19th century).
You couldn't produce this delicate hue using natural, tried and tested, and reasonably permanent dyes.

You asked about the black borders and outlining, mentioning corrosion, a phenomenon I've read about, but not actually seen -- until now. I should have looked harder before leaping. On the right side of the face, all the blacks do appear do be done in flatweave, the outer border looking like an extension of the selvedge.



But go to upper left and, oh dear, the border outside the crenellated design still retains some pile. And a few other parts show evidence of knotting. Which means that all the blacks must originally have been knotted, and what we are seeing is a textbook illustration of corrosion, where ferrous compounds havey eaten away the pile. (But why haven't they damaged the underlying structure ????)




I feel I'm on firmer ground when I say that the bag is all of a piece, the warps common to piled and flatweave halves.





The image of the bag's interior shows a more harmonious transition than is seen on the faded face/back.



All this is detail. We still haven't established where the bag came from or the weaving tradition it represents. Surely, someone must have come across a piece that's broadly similar.

regards


indsor

I donno

Thanks Windsor,

And I must say that is one very beautiful and interesting and unique bag. The rust colored red is magnificent and recalls the color in the best Jan Beg borders with to me a faint turkman cast. My overwhelming irrational feeling for some reason is that it's connected to my beloved Baluch, possibly from Khurrasan...Jan Beg.for no particular reason other than color. David Black has a very large textile picture in his "Rugs of the Wandering Baluch" used for dining apparently, which has pile on the border..flatweave in the center, and which has a similar minimalist design if I recall but with a "mina khani" or "Jan Beg" type border (I don't have my books with me). And the Baluch did use a corrosive black called "mak" made with iron fillings..JA even said they'd use it deliberately to create a 3D effect in 25 years (and I can affirm that it takes only 25 years for the iron to eat away the pile).

But on the other hand, on the bag there are no Baluch designs in the flatweave where you'd expect them..etc.

There are several Baluch commentators on the site whom I trust...James and Richard Larkin and Michael and Horst and Chuck and Jack (from time to time) and..and come to think of it a number of others (I think turkotek is approaching critical mass...Baluchotek is definitely the wave of the future). Maybe they could quantify my gut feelings.

Gene

PS. Dyes are not my specality. but purple of any shade in Baluch, from my experience, synthetic or natural, is very furtive....just about any Taimani will be an illustration. I'm not splitting hairs or anything. Its just that I'm not sure purple or violet is stable under just about any conditions...natural of fuscine. And when you get to purple silk...well, another question entirely. You certainly know dyes so I'll let the experts elucidate.. "I am never chastised, only educated"

PPS. Why call the "spearpoint" Baluch border a "Crenilated Battlement"? Well a few years ago Jack sent me a picture of several Mogul era forts in the Punjab which used that kind of cross design as the design for their battlements. so I assumed they were used by Timurid Turks across the region from Delhi to Samarkand...voila..ecco..there you go...a more logical explanation for a border..walls or whatever rather than "spearpoints." Maybe he can find the photo.

ppps: 17 years ago I bought my wife a ruby in New Delhi...It was big..beautiful...but tended more towards the purplish cocchinal..still red but vaguely sapphire like. Actually, I was looking for that exact red-orangish color and couldn't find it except in a stone too small for my (her) taste ...oh...to find a stone with that color...with carats behind it!!!

Hi Gene

If you've seen purples in Belouch rugs that are severely faded in areas that were exposed to light, you can be virtually positive that they weren't natural nor were they post-World War II synthetics. It's common to refer to them as fuchsine, but there are other fugitive violets dating to roughly the same time.

Regards

Steve Price

Purple vs violet

Gentlemen, Gentlemen...please! Purple and violet are two different things entirely!

Windsor, this is a fine and beautiful bag-khodjoin. Don't worry about the corrosion...it adds to the beauty over time. I'll add a picture of one of my best (my opinion) Baluch rugs with a lot of corrosion. You'll see it the effect isn't of consequence, indeed it adds a 3D effect which is striking in the wool.





The warp and weft of your rug did not corrode probably because they were not dyed with Mak. One reason I think the pile corrodes is that the dye embrittles the wool. This makes it unable to withstand stress in the engineering sense...such as produced by walking on it.

Black is not the only color...some "blues"...usually with some black in them... and a lot of browns will also corrode. I've heard that certain mordants will accelerate the process, but do not know that for a fact.

I look for corrosion, but don't sweat it too much. Gene will tell you that the wool will just corrode by itself and point to some of his carpets that have been in a trunk for 30 years. I still think you have to have the Mak and some physical stress before the wool dies from dyes (heh heh).

I am fairly certain the purple faded to light cream is indeed probably fuchine. However, this dates your bag probably to around the turn of the 19th-20th C. (if Baluch). Also...at that time fuchsine was pretty expensive and usually used sparingly for accent, often with silk. Silk is a different thing entirely when it comes to dye fastness. I recommend taking a look at the pile that is fuchsine on the back and see if it is silk. If so, WOW!!! [Add: the entire little flower may be silk... with two reds and the violet-fuchine]

Now...Gentlemen...a gentle remonstration. There is a difference between “violet” and “purple.” Violet is a color in its own right with a place at the wheel. But purple is a shade of red with some blue. You may think this is splitting wool yarn, but it isn’t. Purple will usually be a somewhat naturally fugitive to light because of the red component. But…violet is another story…and believe me, a very long and complicated one. I suggest a quick visit to wikipodia and a check on the differences between the two.

Remaining question…what is this bag? I would lean toward something Caucasian-eastern Turkish but the type knot would be a problem. Perhaps knot though...

Regards, Jack Williams

ps: Notice how the structure goes from fairly depressed warps in the pile section instantly to flat structure in the flat weave. you would think this to change the dimensions of the rug...but it doesn't. I have a rug where this happens within the pile...depressed warps, then a 5 inch section of undepressed warps...returning to depressed warps.

Hi all,

The women of my family would call the colour on the back of Windsor's bag "fuschia". Females tend to have a wider range of vocabulary for colours.

I have a couple of Baluch pieces with that colour on the back, that have fortunately faded to cream on the front.

I would be surprised if either of them are as early as early 19th century, but maybe pre-WWII.

By the way, I agree that the bag looks "Baluch", but it is an unusual one if that.

James.

Hi everyone,

I would like to have two information about this bag:
The nature of the warp (I have a feeling it's cotton), that of the weft if possible and the nature of the red that seems too saturated and could be synthetic but this could also just be a screen brightness effect.

While most of you are thinking East, I'd rather go West and suggest a possible Feraghan (/Malayer) attribution mainly for three reasons:

1- Knot structure.

2- Use of early synthetic dyes.

3- The use of empty botders which was a rather common feature in the guards in that region especially that these were either red or camel color.

Windsor, did you test the red colour if it runs or you are sure it is natural?

Regards

Camille

Hi Jack

You're right, purple and violet are different things. But you can't distinguish those colors by eye. I haven't chased down the absorption spectra of fuchsine or its relatives, but I'm pretty sure they produce violets.

The fugitive dye on Windsor's piece, like many rugs in which similar dyes were used, has faded essentially to white. If it was purple (dyed consecutively with a fugitive red and with indigo), it would be blue on the front, purple on the back. So, it is almost certainly a fugitive violet.

I inserted the image into your last post.

Regards

Steve Price

Burning Cotton and Fuchsine Fog

Hi all, and thanks for your kind responses

I'll start with Camille's questions, since my answers might have some bearing on attribution. Camille, in rug matters I'm an unreliable witness, but in this case I'm sure that both warp and weft are cotton (the singed threads smelled of burning paper).

I can't be so certain about the saturated red, which appears brighter on the screen than it does in real life (Gene's description 'rust-red' is close, but the colour varies greatly according to the angle of the light). I'd say that the abrash points to a natural dye, as does the fact that when I washed the piece a couple of years ago, not a hint of redness transferred to that bleached white foundation.

I hope that might prove useful.

James, I assume you meant early 20th century. You said that the women in your family would call the violet colour 'fuschia' -- not 'fuchsia'. A lot of people do that, including me when I'm talking about fuschia -- I mean fuchsia -- flowers. Maybe the correct pronunciation sounds like an obscenity. '

Here's a fuchsine fact. Victorian London's notorious fogs were sometimes coloured. Fuchsine smog was sometimes produced by chemical reactions in the coal-tar emissions from millions of domestic fires. Claude Monet was a great admirer of London's colourful fogs -- really; he much preferred London winters to London summers. So when he painted a magenta sky, he wasn't being impressionistic; he was painting direct from nature, only other painters didn't know that and thought 'wow, a violet sky; I' must try that myself.' And that's how Impressionism was born.

Remember, you read it here first. (Smilie here)

On a more serious note, I was surprised to read in Max Doerner's 'The Materials of the Artist' that neither pale madder, nor cochineal, nor indigo were considered to be permanent colours. Certainly, they weren't included in the palette of most Old Masters -- but then paint and dye aren't the same thing.

Gene, you've been so positive in your estimation of the bag that I'd be sorry if the cotton foundation ruled it out as one of your beloved Baluchs. Swap it for your wife's ruby? What's a Jan Beg border? Jack, your stamina is amazing; after your Afshar odyssey I thought you'd be lying down in a darkened room.

You both talk about the black and corrosion. Gene, I'm not sure I buy that story about weavers deliberately using iron compounds to create a 3D effect 30 years down the line -- just doesn't seem to fit the mindset of practical tribal people. Jack, I think you're right about the black dye embrittling the wool, rather than eating it away. I checked the violet areas for silk, but it's wool, so no added Wow! factor there.

I'm still following up some of the other comments, so I'll call a halt for now.

Regards


Windsor

Jan Beg

Windsor,

For me the Jan Beg border is the Baluch version of mina Khani...take a look at Jack's rug above which is one version of it..the border has inevitably 3 flowers in it.

As for cotton, if warp and weft are cotton..It would be hard to imagine its Baluch...maybe a Pak copy but not from what we think of as Baluch. Afshar??

I was thinking if I had any fuschine violet in any Baluch I own. The only one I could think of is this Farah province Taimani (I think thats what we all finally agreed it was last summer in a long line) which does have some vaguely fading violet (fuschine?) in the small "endless knot" medallions in the field.




Gene

Hi Gene,

Have you ever seen fuchsine color in an old (semi-antique) Afshar weaving?
I never did.

Regards

Camille

Gene

Thanks for showing me that handsome bag. ( I forgot to thank Jack, too, for posting the image of one of his favourite rugs, showing corrosion. To be honest, I'm such a beginner that I find it hard to process the input that I myself have asked for. Forgive me if I don't always acknowledge your responses as fully as they deserve).

The medallion does appear to include pale violet. Is it fuchsine, though ? Only if the piece is first quarterish 20th century or earlier and has been stored in a dark environment. Fuchsine is very, very fugitive and, as Steve says, was abandoned early in the 20th century. For evidence of its tendency to fade, you need only go as far as the National Museum of American History (www.150.si.edu/150trav/remember/r224a.htm), where they have the gown worn by the wife of President James Garfield on the occasion of the 1881 inaugural ball. Originally fuchsine -- 'fuschine' in the website caption -- the gown is now 'oyster white'.

As Camille suggested, I headed west and checked out the possible Fereghan/ Malayer attribution. Let's be clear. My rug library consists of three volumes, one of which is due back at the local library. That one lumps the aforementioned districts into the Hamadan area, and says that 'almost all examples from the last century [20th] have cotton [foundations]'. It also says that many early examples have 'a camel-coloured field.' Great! Except that the same brief description describes Hamadan area village rugs as symmetrically knotted, whereas Camille based his tentative attribution partly on the AsL knot structure.

??

Regards

Windsor

Hi Windsor,

You are right for the Hamadan region, as for Feraghan both knots are used.

Anyway, if the red is natural -and I guess it is as it did not bleed- you've got a really nice piece in spite of what was first violet and that was probably imtemded to ward off the evil eye or so.

Personally, I have seldom seen bags with such a silent design.

Bravo!

Regards

Camille

Farah Province prayer carpet

Windsor,

That prayer carpet provoked a 100 comments last summer. Some like it..most thought it strange or garish or odd or crude or one fellew even said it was "common" (I guess he'd seen dozens or something). Its very loosely knotted...maybe 25-30 KPSI.

Jerry Anderson wanted it for his never published book. Lad Duane suggested Farah province Taimanis...there are a few Taimanis there, Some around Shewan village in Bala Balok district..big opium growing place now..no carpets being made there at all..its not economic. I've posted several observations about the Taimani and the Chahar Aimaq and we had a thread started by Danny Mira on Taimani..maybe someone has saved it.

Jerry attributed the prayer rug..I threw all of them away, fool that I am. I showed photos of the rug to the eldest rug dealer left in Herat in February this year. He said...Farah province...80-90 years old. Who am I to quibble.

There is violet in the rug...and you can still see traces of the violet in the kind of curly-que designs. it hasn't gone all white...and actually I think the front and back colors remain pretty consistent (I'm overseaqs and don't have access to the rug). It was bought in 1976 in Karachi. Its been stored in a trunk or hung on the wall of a usually darkened room since. Actually the violet may not be fuschine...I'm not a dye guy...and I'm not at all sure the Taimani would have bought dyes anyway. My feeling is that the Taimani, while extremely intelligent (everywhere conceded in Afghanistan), were so poor they couldn't afford diddly when it came to buying anything to make a rugs. Up until very recently, if they could get $25 for a carpet..they'd doubled their family income for the year. So, I don't know if its fuschine....the carpet remains something of an enigma.

And...that aside..That bag of yours is quite interesting and striking as Camille pointed out. Mais, je vais penser un peu... Je quois que peut-etre nous pouvions trouver l'origin...nous verrons.

Gene

PS. by the way, I visited some country houses around 7 Oaks south of London 20 years ago. one huge mansion rambling structure of a palace had a "silk room" with trappings and bed made for a visit of some British king...(one of them..one of the Stuarts maybe..I've forgotten). Its kept totally dark..you can look at it for 30 seconds.for a pound...they're so afraid of the colors fading.. Same with some of the Frescos in Rome in Santa Maria sopra Minerva by Fra Angelico or Fra Lippo Lippi (I think). I guess light and color don't mix.. If they do..its synthetic.

And Camille, in my imperfect understanding of dyes, if red runs...doesn't necessarily mean its systhetic

Hi Gene

I guess light and color don't mix.. If they do..its synthetic

Every dye is photolabile to some extent. The thing that makes them dyes is that they absorb light at some wavelengths in the visible range. Light has a surprising amount of energy, and absorbed light = absorbed energy. Energy absorbed by a molecule makes things happen. Small amounts of energy (infra-red is the low energy end of the spectrum) just makes atoms jiggle around. Shorter wavelengths (from red to ultraviolet on the spectrum) cause more interesting things to happen, and absorbing high energy light, especially if the source is intense, can cause chemical reactions in the absorbing molecule. When a dye molecule undergoes a reaction, the odds are good that the product will no longer have color. That's why dyes are photolabile.

The natural dyes used in antique rugs are relatively stable to light. They fade slowly. They were probably selected, in part, for that property. Early synthetics are very photolabile, an aggressive orange being a well known exception. In a palette of faded colors, it looks garish.

By World War II, most synthetic dyes were quite resistant to light-induced fading, and that is still true of most contemporary synthetic dyes.

Regards

Steve Price

Professor

Steve,

That is a elegant and very precise explanation. Thanks. Comng from a family of engineers and professors (one sister is the black-sheep..wound up teaching law - come to think of it, Law kind of deals with different shades of grey right?)...where can I sign up for your chemistry class?..are you doing anything on-line?

Gene

Hi Gene

I took a fling at teaching on line. Found it unsatisfying, so I stopped doing it. Turkotek is on line, of course, but I see my role in it more as an aggressive student and sometimes referee than as an instructor.

But, thanks for your very flattering remarks.

Regards

Steve Price

PS - I had a strong interest in photobiology (vision, photosynthesis, and bioluminescence) once upon a time, which required learning a bit of photochemistry, and included it in a cell physiology course that I taught for years. I even have one or two outrageous photochemistry jokes. I'll spare you that.

Hi Gene

The house you visited near Sevenoaks must have been Knole, originally the home of the Sackville family, known among other things for its connections with Vita Sackville-West and her lover, Virginia Woolf. The 17th century tapestries are still there, still viewable by the public, but only in strictly controlled conditions.
Some museums go even further in protecting precious works from light and contaminents. At London's V&A, I remember leaning to take a closer look at a 16th century miniature portrait -- only for the glass to cloud over and black out -- making me wonder if I'd brushed my teeth that morning.

Regards

Windsor

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your valuable explanation on dyes and as this thraed was unplied, I would like to ask a side question.

I know that natural dyes never run -with water- but sometimes they fade away and so we talk about light absorbing colors, like for instance for certain yellows.
During ICOC XI I met professor Bohmer and as we exchanged a few ideas, some of which were of course dyes, I told him about the good results I obtained by dying with red onion skin as it yielded a very nice orange color. He quickly commented:"It will not resist to light!". I said:" But I used tin mordant". He said:" It encloses ..... (I don't remember the technical term) and you have to put the yarn under the sun and test it."

Don't you think the mordant affects the fastnes of a color?

Regards

Camille

Hi Windsor,

It looks like the empty space is full of natural camel hair.

Do you notice any difference, by eye and by feel, in material used for the field with the material used for the colored parts?

Rob.

the evergreen (or red, or blue..) topic of dyes

Good afternoon all.

I am quite curious about this khorjin. The cotton is a clue but the As3 knot is part of the mystery. If we…

1. Assume As3 knot places item into area where such knot is traditional.
2. Assume cotton weft-warp is a traditional use in such an item.
3. Assume the fact that it is a khorjin tends to indicate it is an item woven for use… more likely to be “tribal-nomadic.”

If all the above are correct, we might focus on Persian “nomadics” including Lurs-Bachtiari, Kamseh, Afshar, Shahsevan (maybe…knot could be a problem) ... or the Central Asian eastern groups….. Uzbek, Kirghiz, Karakalpak, Turkman.

Camille, dye fastness to water generally has less to do with the use of natural or artificial dyes then you may think. VERY early in the artificial dye era, some dyes did run when wetted. But this was often because of incorrect dying technique. But the same fault absolutely holds true for “natural” dyes, with cochineal especially having a reputation for being capable to “bleed like a slaughtered hog" (Edwards).

Improper dye amounts, failure to use proper amount and type of mordent, wool preparation, post-dye washing, etc., is usually blamed. The most common artificial dye encountered is red. But in the “chemical dye era,” after the production of some initial poor dyes, by the early 1890s or so the reds used were virtually chemically identical to one of the components of madder, alizarin.

http://aic.stanford.edu/jaic/articles/jaic25-01-004.html

Above is an excellent article about the effect of various energy types on wool and how they affect dyes..this is article is “color-change 101.”

http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/pigmt1c.html

I don’t want to divert yet another line onto dyes and colors. But above is a really deep site dedicated to art…specifically painting. Painting of course requires “paints” which of course are derived from “pigments” of different “colors”

What is especially interesting is how colors and products are judged to be stable. A painting’s colors are judged to be stable on a different time scale than rug colors. I think color in a utilitarian item such as rugs is “good” if it last the life of the rug…usually pretty short. The assumed life of paint colors is on a longer scale. Actually, for paint purposes most of the natural dye materials used in rugs, including madder and cochineal, are judged unacceptably fugitive for paints.

http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/pigmt6.html#lightfast

Of interest is how colors and paints-pigments are scientifically measured using a set of wool pieces dyed with indigo and exposed to light (see "Blue wool test" in section bookmarked immediately above). The pigment-paint fastness is expressed on a scale by comparing the fading of the paint to the rate of fading of the indigo-dyed wool. In our world, indigo is assumed to be "fast." So much for conventional wisdom...again.

Regards, Jack

hi windsor


the more i look at this piece the more i like it. i have no idea where it's from - i will leave that to the experts, but i love these minimalist design pieces.

i would guess that rob v.w is correct in assuming the field is camel hair. as for colours, i would assume too that they are natural and not synthetic (except for the faded purple) . i would also guess it's early 20c ....doesn't have that 'old' feel to it.

it kind of reminds me of a piece wendel swan posted a while back. it was a prayer rug with a 'ghost' mihrab. that piece also had a camel field and was minimalist in design. i can't recall the attribution but possibly NW persian???

given that this piece works only with 4 colours, it's a wonderful change from the busy, multi-bordered, filler motif pieces we sometimes see.

cheers
richard tomlinson

the nose of the camel

Warning.

Windsor may have relatively recently found this board and may not have read some of the topics that have come before. Therefore, I'll respectfully amend other's above comments so that the wrong impression is not given.

This does not affect the interest in Windsor's khordjin...but...

It is impossible to tell true "camel wool" from sheep's wool without a microscope. Even with the piece in hand, unless the examiner is extremely experienced in camel wool he cannot tell, and this includes almost all dealers even those with a life time of experience.

Furthermore, Edwards, Eiland et. al. have noted the rareness of use of true camel wool in the pile of carpet items Eiland goes so far as to note that every time he has examined a carpet supposedly using camel wool, it has proved to be regular sheep. Camel wool apparently does not lend itself to either weaving pile type items or to longevity.

As we have discussed several times before, I personally am very skeptical about the the use of camel wool in a carpetry item. If it has occurred, it is rare.

Jack

Camel wool on a carpet

Windsor,

Hand on wallet when camel wool is mentioned, espcially on a working bag with holes in it. The central field wool looks somewhat different from the border..true. But, my understanding of camel wool is...it comes from the 2 humped camel..not the one humped dromedary.

There are 2 humpers in the Turkoman areas of central asia...as far West as Khiva..as far east as Samarkand, Bokhara, Tashkent, Fergana as far south as maybe the Amu Darya basin area of Afghanistan (I haven't been there) (edit..ok ok I've been relatively recently to Tashkent..I almost made a comment relating to the thread and mini-skirts..Its not appropriate)....And, Fraser in 1821 noted that "fabric of camel wool" was being made by Turkoman tribes in that area. He did not say it was being used in carpets. He implied it was an expensive fabric (I assume used for garments).

In Herat, Afghanistan for 8 months in Fall, Winter, Spring 2006-07 I increasingly confronted a couple carpet dealers selling to Americans who advertised their wares as "camel wool." I asked them to show me the camels, the sheering implements, the carders, the spinning wheels, etc. There is actally a whole street in Herat where all the dyers are at work. These two guys finally took me aside and said it wasn't "camel wool," but rather fine sheep's wool. They asked me not to say anything to the others. The dyers on the street in Herat rolled their eyes when asked about "camel wool."

Anyway, Camel wool on a presentation or wedding piece I could theoretically believe in (but would have to look for proof) and would have it tested. On a working bag...one with holes in it...It'd hold the mustard please. (And I, unlike brother Jack, have occasionally been wrong, something I freely admit, as most humans (non-aliens) would).

Windsor, on your fascinating bag, are you absolutely sure the warp and weft of your Kordjin is cotton? Not a white wool?
Gene

PS. another thought...might it be Fergana..Uzbekistan..Babur's birthplace....East Turkistan?

Hi, all

I went off to mow the paddock and came back to find lots of interesting comments, suggestions and queries. I can't address any of them with confidence, but here goes.

Rob raises the possibility that the field is camel hair. Eye and hand tell me that the material in the field and border are the same. I think it's sheep wool. Remember that Camille talked about 'camel colour', not camel wool. So did the book I consulted when following up the Feraghan attribution -- a primer for beginners like myself, by Murray Eiland III. I think Jack and Gene are correct when they say that the use of camel hair in weaving is very rare -- and I would guess that this bag is not one of those rare exceptions.

Jack also talked about something that I touched on in passing -- the fact that some colours that are considered 'fast' in weavings -- madder, cochineal -- are classed as impermanent when used as painting materials.

Gene asks if I'm absolutely sure the warps and wefts are cotton. Gene, when I took a close look in response to Camille's query, even my uneducated eye said 'cotton', but to make sure, I applied a blowtorch to some frayed warps and got the telltale smell of burning paper. However, I'm beginning to learn that accuracy is really essential when discussing rugs -- especially in cyberspace --so I humbly admit that I didn't apply the burn test to the wefts. Look at the images, though, and you should be able to see white wefts that are of the same material as the frayed warps. With a magnifying glass, I also compared the foundation with white cotton highlighting on a Tekke (?) flatweave chuval -- same matt surface and soft and slightly fuzzy texture. The knotted areas are definitely not cotton.

Richard posits an early-ish 20th century date, and I wouldn't disagree. I'm so glad that the spare design and ecomomic use of colour have given pleasure to Richard and other correspondents.

Jack, Gene and Richard point to many possible places of origin. Gentlemen, I'd need an hour with an atlas just to establish where all of them are, only to find that we'd narrowed the search area to a chunk of the landmass between the Pamirs and the Bosphorus.

My feeling is that Camille's Feraghan attribution -- not stated as fact, but suggested on the basis of the bag's structureand field colour -- is the soundest put forward so far. That's where my research is concentrated -- unless or until someone comes up with a more compelling alternative.

Regard

Windsor

E. Turkistan?

Windsor,

I been thinking about your bag a bit more…I know it has that Crenilated border and that closure mechanism with the flatweave which looks Baluch or one of the tribes leading from Azerbaijan down to the Seistan basin. But I keep thinking about the cotton structure and the minimalist design with central medallion with its slightly odd design and the asymmetric open left construction.

Take a look further at the Uzbeks in Ferghana valley or over the mountains into Sinjiang Province…the E. Turkistan group Yarkhand, Khotan and Kashgar. They have cotton warps and wefts and can have a minimalist tradition. There is the problem of the “battlement border” but the rest seems to fit with E. Turkistan...and they did weave traditional Turkish emblems as well as others.

Here is a Bag from ORR to illustrate the point:



Donkey Bag_The two panels are from a double donkey bag. The pattern seems to be a pictorial of a vase with two flowers and leaves.
Size: 1'8"x3'2"_
Beg. End: 2" kilim with 3/4" slits
Fin. End: Same
Colors: ORANGE, ivory, yellow, brown, pink (faded), green (faded)
Knot: Persian, left; 7 h. x 7 v. = 49 p.s.i.
Warp: Z3, S, cotton, white
Weft: Z4,S, cotton, white, three shoots
Edge: Woven strips, sewn on

Here is the article from ORR:

http://www.rugreview.com/116eturk.htm

at least the structure seems close...

Gene

afshar

Hello everybody

I have find pictures of an Afshar sofreh with empty field and same serrated bordure enclosing it.

I'll send the picture when I come back home.

Amicalement

Louis

Hi Gene and Louis

Louis, that's great! I very much look forward to seeing the piece.

Gene, thanks for taking time to continue your researches. I would never have guessed that they would lead so far east. I read the article that you kindly put up. Some of the technicalities were beyond me, but I got the gist -- namely:

that several areas of East Turkestan used an all-cotton foundation (more so from the late 19th century)

that they used AsL knotting

that they were early converts to synthetic dyes (including 'lavender ') -- so much so that by 1906 the use of vegetal dyes had been all but abandoned

and that they borrowed designs from both east and west.

One bit caught my attention -- where an early 20th century writer talked of the 'strikingly warm, deep glowing red' produced by a natural madder and indigo dye used by the Khotan. I've been a little worried that I'd jigged the images too much, but yesterday, sitting in a dimly lit room with dusk falling, I looked across at the bag hanging over a chair and, damn me, the red was glowing like that ruby you were searching for all those years ago.

I have to say, though, that -- apart from colour, possibly -- I couldn't make any connections with the pieces illustrated in the article -- including the donkey bag. The design says 'Chinese' to me. So, while your suggestion has quite a bit going for it, we need to find at least one specimen that matches my bag in design terms.

I've been dabbling in the field of cotton, trying to find out how many other areas used all-cotton foundations. More than I'd imagined, it seems. In fact I've found three hand-knotted examples at home. Two of them are old Caucasians (I think); the third is a Tibetan rug made in 1981. One of the things that sets the bag apart from these pieces is its stiffness. Whereas you can fold the other pieces flat across the warps without flinching, you get the feeling that if you pressed too hard on the bag, you'd break something.

So...Feraghan, East Turkestan, Afshar? Isn't Jack an Afshar enthusiast?

Regards

Windsor

Handle

Windsor,

When it comes to feeling a carpet, I trust Richard (Larkin)'s opinion on handle. (nobody will admit to being an expert here...Richard seems to have felt more carpets with a sensitive hand than the rest of us and can explain it better). From the books, the leathery hard handle would indicate indeed Feraghan. but darned if I can reconcile that tribal look to Feraghan unless some Afshar groups were living in the area.

I'd still like to think that that red border color is not happenstance..once you see a real blood-red ruby (not the saphirre-like cocchinal purplish red stones whch in modern day are now permitted to be called rubies), you'd understand why real blood-red rubies are still the most expensive gems in the world...and imho from the screen...I think that border mirrors the small stones I saw in New Delhi. Where can you find those stones? India...which had long-standing trading routes running up into the Sinjiang Basin. And those Central Asian Oaises are Turk - think Mogul-Timur connections... really...which would explain the crenilated border. and indeed I was thinking Khotan..though there is precious little information on what differentiates a carpet amongst the city designs along the N. edge of the Tibetan Plateau....then again, this isn't a city design. (train of thought of course).

Anyway, whatever, its a unique bag and quite an intellectual challenge. Already in my imagination I'm traveling the silk route..a romance which is pretty much to me what the hobby is all about. I want to see Louis' Afshar...and if I was home, I'd post that David Black Baluch Baluch dining fabric as well for good measure.

Gene

PS. I sure you're right about the country house near Sevenoaks (I understand there's only one left right?..oak not house)..."Sackville" sticks in the mind after all these years..for a strange and very unsophisticated reason. Because some hairy foot created from an Englishman's imagination seemed to have had a cousin related to him who tried to take over his Bag-Ends hole when he retired...reread "Fellowship of the Ring" and "Return of the King" re the Sackville-Baggins'. There are Canneletto's on the wall near the billard room right?

PPS. Upon second though, I wonder how many of us actually have an E. Turkistan carpet from the turn of the century. They weren't imported into America much (per someone..Edwards or somebody)..they weren't much to american tastes. But they were to India..and in 1988 in New Delhi i bought one..oh it dates to about 1900..it's pretty much gone in the pile with some reweave. It has lots of purple and classic Chinese like E-turkistan borders with a cotton warp and weft and a very stiff handle..Jack has seen it. It has no glowing red like Windsor's bag..and it definitely has a much more purplish synthetic dye, city-like patina...but the feel is what hit me..it feels like it will crack if you bend it.

PPS. I keep thinking of something else to say...Your glowing red in the English light at 9:00 PM. That is a purplishish feeling hour which is oddly elvinishly addictive..I'm thinking of walking across Regent's Park at twilight...maybe the lions roared..I don't remember... it felt strangely like Kenya. But I do remember its a light like nowhere else..oh maybe Belgium but without the drearyness. (you guys who don't know N. Europe and especially Britain laugh...bring your stuff you bought in the Med or C.Asia..paintings or carpets..and lets see how the look in British light. Light mattrers.)!

( By the way, if you get a chance take a look at the Marian North House in Quai - Key .. (jehosephat .. how in the world to you spell "Key Gardens" ..in British)...

Hi Gene

Joy Richards sent me an email saying that you're probably referring to Marianne North Gallery, in Kew Gardens.

Regards, and thanks, Joy.

Steve Price

Camel wool

Warning:

Looking at these pictures is fully at your own risk!
It could be hazardous for those with rigid views.
Views formed by following to many others important noses, about the impossibility of detecting camel wool in rugs, instead of following their own.











Best regards,

Rob

Hi all

Rob, I assume that you're saying your images do indeed show genuine camel hair. It certainly looks like what I'd expect camel hair to look like. Tell us more about the piece. How does the look/texture/feel compare with sheep's wool?

Gene, thanks for doing your bit for English tourism (though comparisons with Belgium won't bring the visitors flocking). Can't remember a Canaletto at Knole House, but since the place has as many rooms as there are days in the year, it's easy to miss the odd masterpiece or three. At 2 pm on this English midsummer day, the sky's turned black and thunder has begun to roll. I'd better post post now before the power grid fails.

Regards


Windsor

I'd walk a mile...for real camel wool.

Good morning all:

Windsor, this line has lurched into a familiar abyss...and I’ve made the points below before. Perhaps it is useful to review them again.

Rob, that is one beautiful Baluch. I for one would love to see a full shot of the whole rug. It looks to be Jahan Begi. If so the camel ground field would be especially cool, if it is old or antique which I guess it could be (the fuzzy back might be of some minor concern). The selvedge warps and to a lesser extent the camel-colored ground have some characteristics usually popularly attribued to camel wool, but so does burlap. Unfortunately, I've been rudely disabused of my illusions.

[add: Odd how the selvedge warps are so completely different from the rug warps, so odd it doesn't look natural. Were these selvedges added later?]

About a year-+ ago, I contacted the Cashmere and Camel Hair Manufactures Institute, (see website, http://www.cashmere.org/cm/index.php) and posed the question of identification of camel wool in rugs. I received a reply from Mr. Karl Spilhaus, President, CCMI (text of his reply is included below). The key point he makes he sums up by quoting Emily Dickinson verse, with minor phrasing liberties...

“Faith is a fine invention when gentlemen can see,
but microscopes are prudent in an emergency”.

His points are:
(a) The fragility of camel hair makes it a questionable material for use in a rug unless the wool uses the guard hairs of the camel;
(b) Only microscopic or DNA testing can confirm camel wool...the identification of camel from purely sensory evidence is either impossible or that ability is confined to experts who have extensive experience with camel wool.

Cecil Edwards, in The Persian Carpet, p.25 writes, "There are only three of importance: [materials used in weaver's craft] silk, wool and cotton...Some commentators appear to have taken it for granted that the characteristic brown Hamadan rugs were woven with camel-hair yarn. Actually, it was very rarely used in the past; and it is never used today..." Characteristically polite, he later expresses skepticism regarding a tale about camel wool in Baluch rugs. Dr. Murray Eiland’s microscopic evaluation findings decades later [never once confirmed camel wool] seem to back up Mr. Edwards’.

Some time ago I hesitantly concluded the following:
(1) True camel wool is a rare item in rugs;
(2) Absent microscopic or DNA testing, a claim of camel wool should be suspect;
(3) For both geographic (possibly) and economic reasons, the use of camel in rugs made by Turkish, Kurdish, various Caucasian, or other western groups is probably rare, and if used at all would possibly be in limited amounts because of the cost. Baluch use of camel may also be suspect because of their predominent use of the dromedary camel.
(4) Dr. Eiland’s note that he has never confirmed a claim of camel wool after microscopic analysis could be applicable across the board.
(5) Absent specialized expertise in camel wool, even dealers with extensive rug experience probably cannot identify camel wool using sensory perceptions.

And my deductions from conclusions: *Camel wool in rugs is possibly mostly mythical. *The claim of camel wool has possibly always been a marketing tactic because of the high regard held for camel wool as a fabric. *This myth has been perpetuated for so long it has come to be accepted fact by many in the industry-hobby without scientific proof. (note: if camel wool were actually used, I would think it might be in small personal bags not subject to foot traffic, but that is speculation.)

I have seen some rugs items I thought were "camel,” especially one particular Caucasian carpet from an exhibit (I’ll look for the picture). But Sue noted once that sheep's wool has 36 (or some such) different qualities and characteristics, depending on shear, animal, time of shear, part of animal, etc., not counting combinations, goat hair, etc. so whatever characteristics camel wool has, it probably has a sheep's wool twin.

I suspect that knowledgeable dealers, especially at the high-end auction houses, know the difficulty with camel wool, hence the spread of the use of the term “camel ground” which can simply be a reference to color, not wool composition.

I'm open to rebuttals

Regards, Jack Williams



Text of email from Mr. Karl Spilhaus, President, CCMI, to Jack Williams:

Dear Mr. Williams:

Our organizations involvement with camel hair extends only to apparel uses. The camel hair which is used for apparel is from the Bactrian camel of central Asia, Mongolia and China. It is a soft fibre distinguishable from sheep’s wool by the normal microscopic methods as well as DNA extraction.

I do not know the carpet trade but, like you, have always been lead to believe that camel hair was often used. I also do not know the physical characteristics of the hair of the Dromedary or typical Arabian camel. My thought is that to be used in a carpet you would want a higher micron than that which is typically used for the fine garments from the hair of the Bactrian camel. It is possible, however, that they use the guard hair from either type of camel and that would be significantly higher micron, unsuitable for garments but suited for other textile uses including carpets.

While I do not have first hand knowledge of the Dromedary I am reasonably certain that that hair could be distinguished from sheep’s wool by any qualified microscopist or by the extraction of DNA. You might want to contact one of the laboratories listed on our website.

I would agree that sensory clues such as touch, smell and appearance would not be a reliable indicator of the fiber except unless you were dealing with a real expert in the field. It brings to mind a quote from Emily Dickerson, which I am not sure I have precisely verbatim:

'Faith is a fine invention when gentlemen can see,
but microscopes are prudent in an emergency."

Sincerely,
Karl Spilhaus
President, CCMI

Add ed: Hopes for camel wool springs eternal for people such as moi, ie: rigid person that I am who just follows passively what others tell me. Here is a picture of an "Arab-Baluch" I recently purchased. Here's hoping it proves a nice value (if not, hit the road). It was adertised to have "camel wool field." It hasn't arrived yet, but I doubt the "camel wool" to the point that I won't bother to get it checked at a lab. They want too much material anyway. What we need is a post showing what to look for under a microscope, complete with a lot of examples.
,

One hump or two?

G'day Windsor and Rob,

Hey Rob, if 'tis, does it have a dryly cottonish softness? Thats how I always remember what it feels like, and it really appears its as rare as platypus in carpets...

Regards,
Marty.

Camel hair

Hi all,

As already mentioned in this thread, camel hair is not widely used in pile weavings but also not as scarce as was stated.

Relying on my own experience (and please don’t quote me for I’m not a fiber specialist), the touch of camel hair is soft and particularly dense –regardless of the texture- hence hardwearing, and usually stays higher than wool with age. It is also more vulnerable to moth attack than dyed wool.
Still, male and female camel hair should have a different as is true for sheep wool. Color range is also quite important going from ivory (close to wool) to dark brown.

Rugs where camel hair occur and can be compared to wool are antique Chondzoresk: Most of the time you will find that the camel-colored cloud-bands in the medallions have a different touch than the rest of the wool.

Nevertheless, I guess it is difficult to recognize and/or to remember from just one touch.

Regards

Camille

Ps: I had just finished to write my note when Jack sent his afar more valuable post. One can consider mine for as much as it is worth.

Camel Wool

Sorry all, I should have stated in my post above the only experience of the wool on/from camels comes from feeling the 'wild' wool on one humpers belong to friends which browsed around my camp, and the wonderful feel of a camel wool coat which was bought in the Middle East in 1955.

There are speculative areas on several of my own carpets that I wonder at, but I am as sceptical as most here.

Regards,
Marty.

__________________
Martin R. Grove

The Finer Points of Wool

Hi again

A bit of Googling yielded the following info.

Fine woollen garments use wool thinner than 25 microns. Merinos are one of the sheep breeds that produces wool of this fineness.

Wool thicker than about 35 microns is used for outer garments and rugs. Most crossbreeds, including the majority of Asian pastoralists' flocks, yield wool with this degree of coarseness.

According to the Australian Rural Industries Research and Development Corporation, the winter coat of the Bactrian camel is from 18 to 26 microns-- that is, it produces very fine wool suitable for fine garments but not for your common or garden rug. Presumably, if it was used in a rug, it would be fairly easy to identify by feel alone.

This is more or less the same as what Karl Spilhouse told Jack. He mentioned the possible use of coarser guard hairs, but I don't know how easy or worthwhile it would be to harvest them.

That said, I'd be surprised if camel- herding pastoralists didn't use every last bit of their woolly resources (although in a report on the decline of camels (dromedary) in Rajastan, I couldn't find any mention of wool as an economic by-product).

Regards

Windsor

Rajasthan

G'day Windsor,

Speaking of Rajasthan, and your finding in a Report no mention of utilisation of camel wool as a percentage of economic consideration, surprises me a little.

I have a couple of coarse heavy kilim type Rajasthan pieces in which a jute type fibre has been used as the weft element on what very much appears to be camel warps.

Saying that seems a bit hypocritical, considering my stated scepticism about much camelid fibre constituted in weavings in general. But I join you in believing that people living with camels in a rural environment would not waste an available resource.

Regards,

__________________
Martin R. Grove

hi

according to the experts who try to define what is and is not a shahsavan piled rug, these experts often cite the use of camel wool in the pile as a particular defining characteristic of shahsavan piled pieces.

i guess they must all have microscopes, or are they pulling the wool over our eyes???

cheers
richard tomlinson

Hi All,

About feel and texture of the camel wool in the Baluch, it is exactly as Marty has put it : "dryly cottonish softness" and I can add to it that, compared to the sheep wool, it holds the plying not as good, it lacks the shiny lustre, it is more messy at the back of the rug and seems to be better resistant to surface wear as any of the colored sheep wool surounding it.

Jack, thanks for liking the rug ( ..it could have been yours, it was on ebay for a week, without one bid..! ) and the selvedges are original.
I'm not very impressed however by your arguments. I do not realy want to go in extensive debates about the issue; I prefer the pictures to speak for themselves. But nevertheless here are some comments.

Of course the tendency in the trade is to proclaim every brown color instantly as: Holy Camel Wool...but it doesn't exclude the tale to be actually true now and then.

First: Was camel wool actually used in rugs?
Edwards opinion, which I do not consider very decisive ( his main interest was the modern ( 1950's ) carpet weaving industry ), is : "rarely used in the past", so the answer should be : Yes. ( whatever "rarely" and "the past" is ment by him ).
Mr.Spilhaus doesn't exclude the possible use in rugs either.

Second: Is camel wool detectable in rugs without the use of a microscope?
You concluded, on several occasions, that : " unless the examiner is extremely experienced in camel wool" , it wouldn't be possible.
This isn't what Mr. Spilhaus wrote. The exact quote is : "unless you were dealing with a real expert in the field".
So the answer to the posed question should be Yes again.
( whatever "expert" and "field" is ment by him ).

And last there is Murray Eiland, of whom you stated that : "he never confirmed a claim of camel wool after microscopic analysis".
This seems to be a strong argument.
Could you give some more info about this statement? Where is this to find? Was he actually looking for camel wool? What kind of rugs were his object of examination and what time frame did he choose?

Best regards,

Rob

afshar hypothesis

Bonjour à tous

I have found in a little exhibition catalog about Sofreh, two ex of afshar sofrehs that feature design quite near of the bag face.

The first have a field border of the same type (but coarsly executed in a kilim technic) with a monochromatic empty field with a cen tral simple device.




The second has also a central medalion device floating on an empty deep blue sky field.



The two ex are said to be afshar.

This is especially the design style and the general idea we can compare with the bag, the technic being very different.

Amicalement

Louis

Simple Sofrehs

Bonjour Louis

Many thanks for posting those images. Sofrehs are new to me -- I understand that they're dining cloths, so presumably don't take the form of a bag -- but I have no difficulty recognizing the stylistic similarities between these two pieces and my bag. Substitute the two central motifs, and item one could easily be regarded as a naive version of the pile bag.

Having been introduced to sofrehs, I did some searching and found enough examples to show that this spare treatment is common. I also learned that knotted pieces aren't that rare. Louis, you're probably aware that while we've been waiting for your posting, we've been sidetracked by the topic of camel hair. Bringing the two together, here's something I read on a commercial site, Caroun.com, which is something of a sofreh specialist.

Speaking of Baluch sofrehs, the author says: 'Some parts, like margins and some of middle motives, are pile woven and the latter group is much more interesting. Ground of Baluch sofreh is soil-coloured, woven of camel wool with fine and ornamental margins.'

Hmm.

Thanks again

Regards


Windsor

healthy questioning

Good Morning all:

Rob and Richard, thanks for the camel wool replies. It is always an interesting subject. I don’t want to hijack Windsor’s line just as progress is being made.

Windsor, that second sofra especially seems to have the elements of your bag. Louis you have added a lot to this with that post. Though I am a Baluch and Afshar admirer, I might caution to perhaps search a bit longer.

The structure, cotton-cotton-As3 knot concerns me a bit with an Afshar attribution...especially as I think Windsor's bag might be older than WWII (no particular reason, just aethetic hope). Unlike rugs, I don’t have a sense for the frequency of cotton structure used in Afshar personal items such as bags, nor do I have a feel for structural changes in time in those items.

The drawing and weaving on Windsor's bag is very precise. The central flower and borders are meticulously done, which is often not the case on minimalist designs. I have a memory of a item posted on this board some time ago. Perhaps it is the same item that Richard Tomlinson is refering to. However, Louis’ Afshar sofras are a good directional analog and could be arrow pointing to the attribution.

Windsor, I will caution that in my opinion, regardless of the source most declarations about camel wool are heresay, unless proof is offered. This is true even within a respected published reference.

Regards, Jack

Murrey Eiland carries a microscope in his pocket

Good Morning again: Re: camel wool in rugs, or... Murrey Eiland carries a microscope

Rob, here are two Jehan Begi carpets perhaps similar in design to yours. These were subjects of discussion by Jerry Anderson in that great interview with Hali-Tom Cole (see: http://www.tcoletribalrugs.com/article10JA.html)



I don’t know if your rug reaches these rarified heights. Treading carefully around Turkotek rules, how/why I overlooked it, if I did, is a mystery, unless I thought I already owned an equivalent example.

Camel wool is one of our reoccurring themes, but ever without a definitive answer. Here is some more hard data:

From Oriental Rugs, Murrey Eiland, Little, Brown and Company, Boston, 1981, p. 48, “Camel wool is made up of extremely fine fibers, and it is distinguished from sheep’s wool mainly by a characteristic scale pattern and by the distribution of pigment granules. Many of the cloaks worn by the mullahs in Iran are of camel hair, and these fabrics are extremely soft....”

“...Nevertheless, when I have examined microscopically the camel-colored areas of certain nineteenth-century Hamadan and Kurdish rugs, which are often described in the rug trade as camel hair, they have always proved to be the same sheep’s wool as that in the rest of the carpet.”

[Ibid, p. 87], “…One is assured by dealers that these rugs…are of camel hair, but I have never been able to verify this. Camel hair provides a soft, luxuriant cloth, both in the natural color and dyed black….Its suitability as a carpet material is less clear. Microscopic examination of many ‘camel hair’ Hamadans reveals that sheep’s wool was used throughout…”

As previously mentioned, Edwards was notably skeptical. However, he left the door slightly ajar about Baluch...here is a quote from his book.

"Camel hair is seldom used. I was informed, however, that the centres of prayer rugs, or rugs made for priests or Sayyids are sometimes woven with it; the reason being that the camel is regarded as a sacred animal because the Prophet rode on one. The story is picuresque, however doubtful. Camel hair is also [my comment: here I think he intended to insert the word “claimed” given his other comments] used in the finest quality Balists.... Camel hair is also sometimes used in the jahizi or Dowry rug which the bride-to-be weaves as part of her dowry. These pieces are regarded as the best among the Baluchi rugs and are not easy to acquire."

Decades ago, Jerry Anderson...in a statement given in person to my brother Gene, though he did not rule out the possibility of Baluch use of camel wool, expressed the opinion that most Baluch items labeled camel wool were actually dyed sheep’s wool.

I don’t disagree with much of what Rob has posted and that rug might indeed contain camel wool, or at least some camel hair in the structure. But we had a hash of this subject 1.5 years ago started by pictorial rugs with camel ground fields. If I correctly recall, that line fortunately included posts by several technical weaving people including Marla Mallet and Sue Zimmerman.





We have since revisited the subject several times. Our previous lines have included pictures of many items believed to be camel wool.

Our discussions have often been fairly scientific, with a bit of heat. As I said, the "proofs" of camel wool were close-up photos and the discussions have featured a LOT of knowledgeable people absolutely convinced they have a camel wool rug. Yet when asked about proof, these same experienced, cynical, and jaded collectors acted like wide-eyed children, universally defaulting to one or all of the following:

(1) “well the dealer, who I trust told me...,” i.e.: default to "Appeal To Authority" (or "Anonymous Authority" or "False Authority") argument.

(2) “I’ve heard that camel wool looks like...” i.e.: default to folk lore and myth about what camel hair looks like and feels like...and the possible myth that camel hair has a consistent and unique look and feel,

(3) “I know my rug has...” i.e.: default to strong fact-less personal beliefs, and

(4) “This wool is different from the rest of the rug, therefore...” i.e.: "Non Sequitur Argument," default to unrelated facts presented as proof ignoring alternative explanation...(for instance the possibility of jufti knots, effect of dyes on wool “feel,” etc).

In all these discussion, not a single rug could be proven to be actual camel wooll...and without a data base of proven analogs, identification of camel using sensory data is logically unreliable. And this is irrespective of the natural inherent difficulties in sensory identification mentioned by every expert in the camel wool field (consider: there IS a reason Eiland carries a microscope with him).

When first confronted by this reality, I was amazed at the lack of facts about the use of camel wool. Subsequently, I collected a healthy data base and communicated with a lot of people outside of rugdom. I was further disheartened to realize that even if an "expert" were to show examples of how to id camel vs sheep, without proof that his "camel" examples were indeed "camel," and or proof of his credentials, it would be just more heresay and circular reasoning (i.e.: "I think that is camel wool because it looks like what I think camel wool looks like'). This is where my conclusions about camel on rugs were formed.

This does NOT mean the camel wool has never been used. But...for me, absent proof (and fabric industry experts invariably say that the average collector must have microscopic evidence...this is the reason for the existence of the CCMI...to test for counterfeit camel and cashmere) I will assume a claim of camel wool to be purely a marketing tactic...why?...because the weight of evidence has shown that to be true in most if not all cases.

I hope to one day be able to develop a data base and publish examples of microscopic data, thus enabling the average Joe to examine his own rug with confidence. This is on my list of things to do...right after....[fill in the blank].

Regards, Jack

add ed: I do recall one post that stated a dealer in Istanbul (I think) had the ability to judge using a jeweler's loup or glass, and had declared several items to contain camel wool. I don't think it was followed up because I was very interested to know what spedifically he looked for.

Bactrians

Hi all

Jack, no need to worry about diverting attention from Louis' sofrehs. They're there for all to see, and I'm sure that if anyone has anything to say, they'll say it.

When Louis' eagerly awaited message came through, I was doing a bit more digging into the camel hair question. No earth-shattering revelations, but for the sake of completeness, here are some more jottings. (Skip them if you're here for rug aesthetics).

They come from 'Harvesting of Textile Animal Fibres', a bulletin published by the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization.

It confirms that camel hair is largely obtained from the Bactrian, with China the largest producer (1800 tonnes in 1987, of which more than 50% came from Inner Mongolia). The camel moults over a six-week period, the neck hair falling off first, then the mane, and finally the body hair. Harvesting is by combing, by shearing, and by collecting the clumps of shed hair.

The publication states that, like cashmere, ONLY the soft, fine underwool is used for the production of yarn. The long outer hair, which has a diameter of 20 to 120 microns, is used to make felt for the Mongolian yurts, for the herdsmen's winter coats, and for carpet backing.

The dromedary is barely mentioned in the bulletin (a very comprehensive publication that even covers the weasel). It sems that the one-humped species doesn't qualify as an important economic resource. But...I would have thought that, at the local level, in a subsistence economy, its wool would be utilised down to the last hair. We have two sheep (used as lawnmowers) that need to be sheared each year. The wool, though reasonably fine, has no monetary value; you can't give it away. Each year it goes onto the compost heap, but if there was a weaver in the family, you can bet that I'd have a new pair of woolly gloves each winter.

Now I'm going back to sofrehs

Regards

Windsor

To conclude

Hi Jack,

So what looked to be a strong argument from Murrey Eiland, based on examination a broad range of different rugs, appears to be one based on examination only Hamadans and Kurdish rugs, of which the trade claimed they contained camel wool.
Rather thin ground for a conclusion like : "he never confirmed a claim of camel wool". This could be true as such of course, but it suggested much more then there is.

To stay with semantics....one other good reason for the tales around camel wool in rugs is the simple explanation that the word "camel" has double meaning: the animal and the color.

As I already thought and as shows in many posts here: the direction to point a microscope at ( if you insist ..) should be the Baluchi's.

Regards,

Rob

Baluch and camel wool

Rob,

The point about Baluch carpets and camel wool...having been up into Baluchistan and along the Afghan border from Seistan to Khorrasan...is there aren't any two humped Bactrian camels there to my knowledge. That was my problem with the Herat rug dealers this last winter.

Now, Boucher donated his rug collection to the Indianopolis museum. I met Boucher and McCoy-Jones as I've recounted in 1978-79. Boucher claimed camel woool in several of the Baluch carpets in his collection..see his book "Baluch Woven Treasures." I doubted it in 1979 (but didn't have the guts to speak up..he was a former colonel with a dominating manner..we talked mostly of Jerry Anderson)....and I still doubt it...so much so that I'll send an e-mail to the museum and ask if they've ever had the wool in the carpets he claimed was camel analysed.

And Jerry did mention Camel Wool in a Baluch carpet in his interview with Tom Cole (see "from the horse's mouth")...even saying that camel wool was dyed in Seistan...not what he told me directly in my three years of contact with him...but I could be wrong ... or he mispoke with Tom.

Still, the idea of getting a good picture to post on Turkotek of Camel Wool under the microscope compared to sheep's wool..is very appealing.

Gene

PS. Windsor, in that JA interview, he mentions Ferdows "Baluch" rugs being woven on a carpet foundation. That starts me wondering again about your bag...Ferdows Baluch would fit from what I know of them.

Hello all.

Marty, Rob and I have the same approach to recognizing camel-hair... Would that be a pure coincidence?

Not wanting to talk for others but I guess we all believe in scientific facts, BUT!…If we agree on a pile fiber bearing a definite description that is different from dyed wool in a same given rug and that is neither wool nor camel hair, I wonder then what this strange camel-color fiber could well be…

As for the sofreh that are similar to the bag, one could count half a dozen sofreh provenances that are equally similar. But would the pile weavings of those be technically similar to the bag? Would the colors fit as well (including the fuchsine that we nearly forgot about)?

Regards

Camille

Hi Camille

Marty, Rob and I have the same approach to recognizing camel-hair... Would that be a pure coincidence?
Unlikely to be a coincidence, but the fact that you all learned the same thing only means that what you learned can probably be traced to a common source. Certainly, either all three of you are right or all three of you are mistaken.

If we agree on a pile fiber bearing a definite description that is different from dyed wool in a same given rug and that is neither wool nor camel hair, I wonder then what this strange camel-color fiber could well be…
Not all sheep wool is identical, even from the same sheep. Spring and fall shearings, effects of dying, for example. You don't really KNOW that the camel colored stuff isn't wool, only that it seems different from most of the wool in the same rug.

I don't know how to recognize camel wool or how common or rare it is in textiles made at different times and places. But in the absence of definitive evidence (testimony of someone who has handled lots of sheep wool and wool that is unquestionably camel wool would do), I'm skeptical about whether anyone here has yet presented trustworthy criteria for identifying it.

Regards

Steve Price

Hi Steve,

Quote :
" ..'Marty, Rob and I have the same approach to recognizing camel-hair... Would that be a pure coincidence?'
Unlikely to be a coincidence, but the fact that you all learned the same thing only means that what you learned can probably be traced to a common source. Certainly, either all three of you are right or all three of you are mistaken."

Marty's source for his information was: Handling a camel in the flesh. ( sounds a bit odd...).
Ergo: what he learned was correct--> ergo: all three of us are correct, following from your statement.

Well, that was an easy one, Steve.

Regards,

Rob.

Hi Rob

I must have missed Marty's having handled camel hair while it was still attached to a camel. That's plenty good enough to convince me that it was camel hair, and to persuade me that all three of you have it right.

Thanks

Steve Price

Hi all

I pat my dog, stroke my cat, and from time to time have run my fingers through a woman's hair. But I don't think I'd know which hair was which if they were woven into textiles.

Regards

Windsor

PS Don't tell my wife I said that.

Dromadary

Rob,

Unless I'm mistaken, Marty "handled" a one humper. One hump dromadaries do live in the Baluch speaking areas and all the way over to Iraq. ..heck..all the way over to Morrocco. So, I've concluded that if there is camel wool in those carpets then someone is using wool from dromadaries.

That might be both a problem and a solution since we've focused on high end, small micron camel hair as used in sports coats which comes from Bactrian camels-two humps. Still, before I'll reach a conclusion that wool from dramdaries are used in Baluch carpets...I need some scientific proof.

Its not that I distrust Marty and his sense of feel...or for that matter you...its just at this point I have conflicting information. On one side is you, Boucher and a large number of other "oh it must be camel hair" Baluch owners; in the other corner is Eiland and Edwards and the camel hair institute.

If anyone can show that dromadary wool is being used..then we are closer to convincing me to believing in camel wool in carpets. And I asked this question in Herat...noone could tell me where the supposed "camel wool" they were advertising in their carpets...some was "dyed"... was collected, carded or spun..it just sort of "appeared."

I'm still going to contact the Indianopolis museum and see what they say about Boucher's collection. Perhaps someone with connections could talk to the Textile Museum in Washington DC about the subject as well (I'd do it but am overseas; John Howe though goes there from time to time)...maybe we can get some tests run for free?

In the meantime, Rob you believe that that Khorrasan Jan Beg you exhibited above has camel hair in the selvedges. There should be enough wool strands there to test without destroying pile...why not do it?

Gene

G'day all,

While its true that I have handled (tremulously) camels and their coat a bit, they are of the one humped variety which is pretty conclusively stated in many writings NOT to be of the type which is useful/used in the making of carpets.

On the dromedarys belonging to my friend Gordon there are several distinct types of hair/wool, and this is also dependent on whether its winter or summer. Also the colours vary considerably.

I would LIKE to believe that I have weavings which contain camel wool, if only for the 'romantic' sensation this gives me, however as said before, I am as sceptical as the next person if only because having read so much in the negative about useage of camelid wool in carpets.

The only POSITIVE woven camel hair/wool use I have experienced in my hands is a now old 1955 camel hair coat of remarkable softness which is as I described as 'dryly cottonish soft' - and which also applies to certain areas of wool on the dromedary camels I have touched.

Its the range of colours carried by the camels AND woven stuff I think MAY be camel which leaves me wondering - none of mine have that classic 'camel' colour shown in the old Baluch rugs.

Its as bewildering to me now after years of contemplation as it was originally, this conumdrum about camel in carpets, but just as entertaining

Regards,
Marty.

Arab Baluch

Thanks Marty...I think we narrowed down the problem and maybe even can find a solution to the camel wool question.

In the meantime, coming back to Jerry Anderson's notation that "Arab-Baluch" around Ferdows make "cotton based" carpets...if this is true...Then I can readily believe that Windsor's bag is Arab-Baluch. It looks like a baluch, has the colors of a Baluch...Its just that darned cotton base. And heck, if its Ferdows...there are plenty of Afshar connections there as well,. I'll post here what Jerry had to say about it.

Here is Tom Cole's interview:

http://www.tcoletribalrugs.com/article10JA.html

And here is what he had to say.

.... "HALI: And no.2 in the HALI Baluch poll article?
.... "JA: Arab, just like he says, but from Firdows (26). I’m sure it is woven on a cotton foundation. It’s more Baluch than most rugs from Firdows. As I said before, they are usually a Persian type of rug."



Here is the description:

26. Arab Baluch carpet, Firdows area, Khorasan, 19th century. 1.42 x 2.54m (4'8" x 8'4"). Warp: Z3S, white cotton, on one level; weft: mostly white cotton, some grey, 2 shoots, loosely packed; knot: 2-3Z, wool, AS open right, 9H x 10V = 90/in2 (1,395/dm2); sides: 1 cord of 2 3-4Z(Z3S) cotton warps overwrapped and secured to sides with wefts around the outer cord in figure-8, covered with simple overcast of goat hair; ends: top – balanced cotton plainweave with 2 shoots of indigo wool flanking remants of weft substitution zig-zag meander. ‘Baluch Perspectives’, HALI 59, p.114, attributed to “Qain or Torbat-e-Heydariyeh, late 18th century”, subsequently reattributed as “Arab or possibly Afshar, Birjand district, late 19th century”. Anne Halley Collection, courtesy Adraskand Inc., San Anselmo, California.

The important point for me relating to Windsor's bag is not the design of the above carpet...which does look Afshar doesn't it?... but rather the cotton structure. Can anyone confirm that cotton based pile rugs and bags are made around Ferdows?

Gene

PS. Check out the crenilated battlement inner border and the ground color on the outer border.

camel hair

Here is a picture of camel hair



Louis

I respectfully recall the great Red Baron, always a dogfight with a Sopworth Camel

Gentlemen...Louis, as usual you have offered up some facts not opinions...thanks.

I respect the knowledge and experience of those who regularly participate here, and those in the business. And I always enjoy these type of exchanges, because often I am driven to learn something new. I even think that somewhere, sometime, someone used some camel wool in something other than a some garmet, perhaps even in some type of rug.

However...

- The head of the CCMI says you need microscopy to identify camel wool...and says sensory perception will not suffice...

- The CCMI relies on lab tests to confirm or deny camel wool, not someone's sensory opinion...

- Murrey Eiland carries a microscope and checks behind dealers...invariably finding sheeps wool, not camel... and does not claim to be able to tell camel by sensory perception, hence his use of a microscope...

- Cecil Edwards says "camel wool was rarely used in the past and never in the present [about 1950],"

- It is shown that classic camel wool comes from the Bactrian, and that the Dromadary is the camel primarily used by the Baluch, for transport, meat and milk, and it produces less than one-fifth of the shed of a Bactrian...and none of the fine hair...

- It is testified that true Bactrian inner coat "camel wool" in a fabric sense is expensive, thin, fragile, soft, difficult to dye, and slippery and is thought to be unsuitable for use where walked upon...[throw a camel wool coat on the floor and see how long it lasts].

- References in the literature to use of the guard hairs of the Bactrian camel separately from the inner fleese are generally lacking...as is evidence of how it is woven into rugs, etc.

- For over a year, the subject of camel wool has filled gigabits of band width on this board with hundreds of posts from numerous experience hobbiests and dealers, most of whom declare that "their particular rug is camel wool, regardless of facts." Yet no one has shown a single example of a proven camel wool rug to illustate to others what the material allegedly looks like, or even if it has a distinguishable "look"...

Despite the above, yet again people I respect for their insights and knowledge about rugdom swear that they are different from the rest of the world...they know what camel wool in a rug looks like and can tell it on sight, unlike the CCMI, Murrey Eiland, Cecil Edwards, et. al. And yet again not one example of proven, real camel wool is presented, nor a resume of experience with camel wool.

[My mate Marty at least said he owns an old camel wool jacket and has actually seen and touched a Dromadary camel...which is so impeccably honest and guilless that I am truly impressed] [add ed: that was written before Louis' post, which just goes to show even moi can be hasty]...

I sincerely hope someone, someday, will share a data base of proven examples of camel wool used in rugs. So far, no such luck...just more of what everyone has one of...an opinion. And sometimes I think that if the information exists, why should someone share it? All that will happen is that people will swear that the published characteristics are incomplete because they exclude their personal rug, which they KNOW has camel wool...

So, I'll simply re-post something I previously wrote and return to searching for the holy grail of Windsor's khordjin...

...Yet when asked about proof, these same experienced, cynical, and jaded collectors acted like wide-eyed children, universally defaulting to one or all of the following:

(1) “well the dealer, who I trust told me...,” i.e.: default to "Appeal To Authority" (or "Anonymous Authority" or "False Authority") argument.

(2) “I’ve heard that camel wool looks like...” i.e.: default to folk lore and myth about what camel hair looks like and feels like, without even knowing if camel hair has a consistent and unique look and feel,

(3) “I know my rug has camel wool...” i.e.: default to strong factless faith-based personal beliefs, and

(4) “This wool is different from the rest of the rug, therefore...” i.e.: A "Non Sequitur Argument," default to unrelated facts presented as proof ignoring alternative explanation...(for instance the possibility of jufti knots, effect of dyes on wool “feel,” different combinations of carded wool, etc).


Regards,

Jack Williams
New Orleans,
"proud to crawl home"

$ late & L= short (no symbol for pound)

Jack,

We-Nous (Louis et moi) already solved it. Windor's bag is an Afshar-Arab-Baluch from the Ferdows area. Should be close enough.

Gene

(There you were getting side-tracked as usual on peripheral issues..and forgetting the first point in Clauswitz's principles from "On War"...i.e. Objective.)

Crenilated battlement vs. spear point

Hi all,

I've referred to the Baluch "spear point" border as a crenilated battlement..I mean "spear point" seems vaguely stone age. Here are two images illustrating my point..the first from the mosque in Lahore and the second from the famous Mogul fort at Attock (the battlement there is not what I was looking for - there are other forts which have that cross design on the battlements..I've been in several..I just don't have access to my library) ...both from the Mogul period ...imported from Central Asia by Babur (the Timurid turk/mongol) and/or from Iran via his son Humayun (who took refuge there with his Kizilbash cousins..though Shi'i). (you'll recall Babur's last attempt on Samarkand failed about 1520 because he was using in large part a Persian Kizilbash turkman-presumably including Afshar - JA says it should be spelled Afsar who are related to the Ersari - Shi'i army which outraged the locals.) What do you think? Logical?






Besides..."battlement border" has a certain ring.

Gene

Hi Gene,

"In the meantime, Rob you believe that that Khorrasan Jan Beg you exhibited above has camel hair in the selvedges. There should be enough wool strands there to test without destroying pile...why not do it?"

Yes, why not. Good idea.
Enough selvedges there to settle this down once and for all.
Any volunteers ( with knowledge and a microscope ) to send a sample to?

Regards,

Rob.

I Want MORE

Louis,

Do you have a photo of sheep wool with which to compare the camel hair?
I have a small 60-100x hand-held microscope with an integral light, about $10 at Radio Shack, that shows the wool in my "camel hair" gabbeh that looks like the photo you showed. The areas of camel hair show finer, thinner strands than the adjacent wool areas, too.
But the minute differences are not easy to discern without a picture of sheep wool for comarison.

Thanks for the picture!

Patrick Weiler

Hey gang,

I'm jumping into this thread very late, and in truth have only skimmed all the entries. Please forgive superfluous or redundant comments.

I thought we had killed this camel wool in rugs issue, but it comes back. I was voting for "yes," based chiefly on having seen a "different" type of fiber for the camel color in many Baluch rugs, a la Rob's example. I'll hold out for that proposition in the face of all the microscopes in Afghanistan (or San Francisco). However, assuming the truth of my assertion, it doesn't necessarily prove camel hair. It could just as easily reflect a variant grade of sheep's wool, turning up in that particular color for some plausible reason.

About Windsor's bag. It doesn't seem Baluch to me, especially if the red is the shade my monitor is providing. The incidental decoration and finish doesn't suggest Baluch either. Neither do I see Feraghan or the greater Sultanabad area, except that it is Persian knotted. It could really be from anywhere and anybody. It's different.

[Aside to Gene: I really appreciate you putting me up there in lights, but if I have pretended to some special talent or expertise in the "handle" of rugs, I hereby confess it was fraudulent. I have no doubt that at least half plus one of all the TurkoTekkers out there could at a minimum handle rugs with me, grab for grab. My chief point about handling rugs is, in the cases of some of these ambiguous "mystery" rugs that seem to be pretending to be several different types (ubiquitous on TurkoTek), one would like the chance to handle them to narrow the possibilities.]

__________________
Rich Larkin

hi

i think we SHOULD pursue this by microscopic verification of as MANY samples as possible (from as wide a variety of weaving groups as possible)

i therefore urge anyone who thinks they have camel wool in a piece they own to forward a sample to whoever is to undertake the testing.

let's see for once and for all...

regards
richard tomlinson

Hi all

It's not difficult to find microscope images of sheep's wool on the internet, but for a meaningful comparison with camel hair, you'd have to subject selected samples to the same analytic techniques (Apologies for stating the obvious). My impression is that 'ordinary' sheep's wool (not superfine merino or similar), is pretty distinctive, being much scalier and more crimped than the camel fibres image posted by Louis.

Gene, thanks for showing us the inspiration for those 'battlement' borders. The problem, as Steve told me even before the thread opened, is that the border pattern is used in many different weaving areas.

Can it really be that the bag is unique? Unique not good. Unique bad.

More later.

Regards

Windsor

Windsor,

Unique good. Trite bad.

__________________
Rich Larkin

quote:

---

Originally posted by Windsor Chorlton
Can it really be that the bag is unique? Unique not good. Unique bad.

---

Hi Richard,

If someone had seen a similar signed bag or one that had comparable features + a trait that would point to a specific attribution, I guess the thread would have stopped long ago.

Hence, while we are trying to narrow the target, I believe, without being 100% sure, that the closest attribution is the Feraghan area. And until someone comes up with a new "convincing" provenance, I retain Feraghan.

You said:

quote:

---

[Neither do I see Feraghan or the greater Sultanabad area, except that it is Persian knotted]

---

Testing Testing

G'day all,

With regards to Wiltons bag; it certainly has something which interests and even piques a few of us for the difference it exhibits. The cotton foundation has been considered fairly unusual in this type of weaving although we dont really know its origin.

The red border dye has attracted the ultimate description, akin to ruby (best mogok red Gene?) and it has what could be called elegant simplicity with a very minimalist field design of only one small medallion.

I like the 'crenellated' border which may literally be a rememberance of castles from ages past.

Steve has put it nicely in reply to what could be called a certain uniqueness in saying that most of us like the unusual and out of ordinary pieces we may encounter.

This can also be applied to Robs rug with the possible use of camel selvege cords and field wool. Perhaps we would really like to confirm if camel wool is in our rugs because we know it is unusual to find it, and the camel still conjours a romantic past.

As for the testing of camel wool, Im up for it from a couple of my rugs - I would dearly love to know for certain because I honestly do believe that frugal people utilise everything which they can, and if they live with camels then the wool from them would be used, somehow.

Hopefully someone with enough interest and resources in 'is it or aint it camel' will put their hand up to organise a testing of a bunch of hairs from a not too large number of Turkotekkers

In anticipation,
Marty.

Hi Marty

Microscopic inspection of fibers isn't very labor intensive. Pat Weiler has a microscope at his disposal; I do too, and I volunteer my services along with Pat's. The most time consuming element will probably be the record keeping - matching the samples to particular rugs. If this isn't done, it's a waste of time.

Another aspect, though, is that whoever does the examination has to be pretty sure he knows the differences between camel wool and sheep wool, in all their variations. Neither the sheep nor the camels in western and central Asia are clones - there are bound to be lots of variations in each. Consider the variability in hair type among humans (even in my own family - my wife's hair is fine, mine is coarse, my son's is kinky - he's African American).

Sheep wool samples from rugs of different times and places are readily available (it only takes a few fibers to do a microscopic examination), so that isn't a problem. Pat and I (and anyone else doing it) can probably train ourselves to recognize the variations in sheep wool pretty easily. Maybe there are good published microscopic photos of various kinds of camel wool - that would help a lot.

Regards

Steve Price

Guileless

Thanks Jack, I dont know about being guileless but I have been called 'gormless' which is English for 'not having much of a clue' which term more than adequately describes my certain knowledge about the things which we (or more properly 'moi') discuss on these pages.

'En chuckle',
Marty.

About how

G'day Steve,

Thanks, I agree entirely, and as a furtherment to doing the testings, what about we photograph the rug we are testing the wool from with also a closeup of/from the area where the wool was taken, attach the wool somehow without contaminating it with glue or such and whistle it off to whosoever of you has email the address or post box to which we might send it.

Crikey, technology strikes me again - dont remind me, having to get one of those newfangled digi cameras ugh! Im still using my Minolta XE...(and only recently having given away my Box Brownie)

Regards,
Marty.

A Word from Wilton

Hi all

I was being tongue-in-cheek about the bag being unique. I doubt very, very much that it is. I think it was Gene who used the term; others have described the bag as 'unusual', 'out of the ordinary', 'a puzzle', etc, all of which are indisputable on the basis of the evidence so far.

'Is unique bad?' Steve asks. In the marketplace, the answer is 'Yes, possibly.' if by 'unique' we mean a piece that doesn't fit the known pattern. Most collectors are conservative. They chase those scarce items that are clearly classified, categorized and catalogued. They want to be able to display a piece that's undisputably Feraghan, or Baluch or Kazak or whatever, not one that could have come from any of these areas or none. As for the truly unique object, it presents a peculiar problem because it is so rare that, unless it has rock-solid provenance as well as aesthetic appeal, there is no established market for it and therefore no way of estimating market value (As soon as it's sold, the price paid is the value).

I lean towards a city connection with this bag -- woven in a village for sale in an urban centre. I have an image of the bag slapping up and down on the flanks of a prosperous merchant's mule. See what flights of fancy this rug business bring on.

I chuckled at being called Wilton. Marty, not everything in this world is rug-connected.

Regards

Windsor (somewhere near Axminster)

Its true

G'day Windsor, humble apols,

Talk about freudean When I was writing of being called gormless, an english word probably unknown to the Americans, my own englishness was prominent and with rugs also, it was a slip twixt the cup etc etc - thats my story and sticking to it...

Curiously,
Marty.

"MOM, do I have to do everything?"

RE: Camel wool testing. See:

http://www.cashmere.org/cm/testinglabs.php

("Mom...why do I have to do everything?...")

RE: Testing methods. I wonder if the CCMI would be interested in a project. If so, it would be nice to experiment with some high-end items that are thought by a concensus to have camel wool. If the CCMI were interested at all, and Steve did not want to do the dirty work, I wonder if someone like Dr. Eiland (or Tom Cole, or Richard Wright) would be interested in lending their expertise, expert emeritus or some such... especially if the results proved to be publishable.

RE: "Unique-1." I opine that Windsor's (a.k.a. "Winston," 'Wilton," "William," "Wilheim," et. al.) bag is unique as the term is popularly used...in that I havn't seen anything quite like it, especially the careful weaving of a minimalist design. It is generally assumed a "Khorjin" is used on an animal. But actually, many seem to be just carried over the human shoulder as a shopping or tote bag...hence the narrow connection between be bag (I have pictures showing this...I'll add them later).

RE: "Unique-2" Windsor, regarding collector's attitudes, I'll be happy to evaluate your khorjin for you. Please forward it to me with a stamped return box. Add extra postage because I may need to keep it on my wall for a while to get the feel of it and postage rates will probably rise considerably during that time.

RE: "Unique-3" Rob's rug also has a very unique feature. I have never seen such selvedges on a rug. If original, weaving would have required some careful pre-planning for using the radically different size and material yarn when threading the warps.

The odd warp knotting at the ends of his rug may just be a recent attempt to minimize further end damage, or just less than stellar original work. But the radically different selvedge warps look so different that it may affect the way the rug is regarded pictorially. I would love to hear some weaving expertise opine about this... Hey Sue! (ground control to major Sue...) how about returning to Earth and giving us the benefit of your expertise?

Regards. Jack

Iconic expertise

Thanks Jack,

Your terrific suggestion has just dropped me out of it I dont HAVE any high end stuff (never paid more than a grand Au for any) so will only be able to read of it, not participate - what a bummer...

I really love how you pull everything together - makes for an easy read. And I generally agree - must be something Baluchiphile which created your gung ho acquisitive and successful inquisitive self, or maybe just being second string timewise to bro Gene.

Chortlin' Marty.

must agree

that..and possibly being an alien...and me being the handsome one.

I mean, who would choose to live below sea level...(humm..all you dutch guys...no offense, you don't have hurricanes...except in 1953...I'm talking about the latest lake in N. America)

Hi Camille,

About why I'm not persuaded towards the Feraghan area. As I see that group of rugs: there are the classic old Feraghans, characterized by Persianate designs rendered in asymmetrical knots on cotton foundations (warp and weft), slightly to moderately depressed warps, wefts quite visible at the back of the rug (this is important), a generally precise and regular weave, a lighter color tonality [featuring a particular soft green and (on some) a soft yellow], and a somewhat light (in weight) weave; there are Mahals, which are similar to the Feraghans as noted above, but coarser, more brightly colored and often not so regular in the weave; there are the old Sarouk types, showing fully depressed warps in a Persian fancy workshop style of weave; and the "American Sarouk" types, a studied kind of commercial production also exhibiting fully depressed warps, with a rather rigidly consistent pallette and design.

As I look at Windsor's bag, the only aspect of it that suggests the Feraghan area is the Persian knotting with cotton foundations and slightly depressed warps. However, I don't see this combination of features to be so distinctive as to beg the Feraghan attribution. On the other hand, it lacks the distinctive Feraghan "look" in the weave, which is characterized mostly by the look of the wefts. If you have the Neff and Maggs book, which talked about "weave patterns," there is a good example in it. The coloring of Windsor's is decidedly un-Feraghan-like, as well as the pattern. Finally, I'm not aware of any quasi tribal or rustic production from that area that would make me say "Feraghan."

__________________
Rich Larkin

Hello Richard,

You are talking about a precise weaving style of the Feraghan that occurred in the second half of the 19th c. of which the Maggs/Neff example is a typical one.

I would like to emphasize on two points:

1 – Feraghan is a region and not a city and there are many villages involved in knotted rug manufacture and I guess their number progressed between let’s say 1870 and 1920 (being the approximate date of manufacture of the bag). And while a typical 19th c. Feraghan was well described by you and so can we describe a typical 19th c. Saruq or a 19th c. Malayer (or Mishin-) or a Mir rug of the same period. But while we advance in time towards the 1920s a lot of combinations appear like Feraghan-Malayer or Saruq-Malayer etc… and this is due in my opinion to the progressive number of villages in the region that started knotting rugs and combined features of different villages.

2 – We should also bear in mind that technique of weaving and especially material specificities change with time: An 1880 Mohtashem has nearly nothing to do with a 1930 Kashan knowing that both cane from the same city… I am not only referring to the wool quality or to the design or palette but for instance to the way the threads (warp, weft or pile) were spun: thinner/ thicker, even/coarse, hand/machine.

You also mentioned the colors of a typical 19th c. Feraghan but you missed to mention the camel color that is often used in empty border-guards, a feature that is typical of the Malayer/Feraghan region and that is seldom seen in pile weavings of other rural areas. This is a hint that can also be retained for that possible attribution.

Furthermore, a saddle-bag that could have well been woven for personal use does not have to follow very accurate aesthetic characteristics that are typical for a given production and that the market is used to.
Besides, to be fair, "quasi tribal" or "rustic" are not adjectives I would attribute to a rather fine piece with a well-centered "medallion" and a relatively fine workmanship.
We all agree on the unusual design of the piece and if you have another -or a more accurate- attribution, I guess all would be pleased to discuss it.

Regards

Camille

What's this?

... Hey Sue! (ground control to major Sue...) how about returning to Earth and giving us the benefit of your expertise? ...

Jack, If little slave kids could do it so can you. Enter the REAL learning curve. You don't have to be a chicken. Go for it. Sue

Hi Camille,

I agree with everything you say. I focused on the "classic" 19th century Feraghan and Mahal types because they had some features in common with Windsor's bag as to weaving: cotton foundations, asymmetric knots and slightly depressed warps. I felt those resemblances were superficial, however, and that Windsor's fabric did not seem (from look on my screen) to belong with them for the reasons I mentioned. Your reference to subtle differences among weavings as to matters such as weight of materials, their processing, etc., is well taken, as it is these circumstances that lend to various weavings their special character. I would be surprised if the subject bag matched up with old Feraghans when compared at this level.

As to the broader range of products from the region (which are not, in my opinion, very much elucidated by combination labels like "Malayer-Sarouk", "Feraghan-Sarouk," etc.), there is little to suggest kinship with this piece in my opinion, any more than other weaving regions over there. One can just as plausibly place the piece farther to the Northwest, or the Southeast, and say that the anomaly is the asymmetric knotting. I am at a loss to place the piece myself. I just don't see any special likelihood in the Feraghan area. As you noted, if the origins were obvious, the thread would have stopped already.

Your point about the camel color used in some Malayer work is a good one, but I disagree that it is seldom used as a plain field color elsewhere. Kurdish rugs, Serabs, Baluch, old Hamadans, etc., are all known for this use of camel dyed wool. By the way, I don't consider the terms "quasi tribal" and "rustic" to be denigrations of Windsor's bag. Some of my favorite rugs are quasi tribal and rustic looking. I think this piece is of the character we are referring to as we commonly apply those terms.

One last point, a question for Windsor. Forgive me if it's already been mentioned in this thread. The little dots of strong pink in the central device that faded to white on the surface look like they could be an alternate material to wool, such as cotton or silk. Is this possible? I also harbored the thought that, from the look of the image on the screen, the knotting might be symmetric. But I guess not.

Best regards!

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Rich Larkin

Hey folks,

Oops! I see that Windsor has already addressed the question of the material of the pink knots.

What really bums me out is arguments over points that don't mean a g. d. ("gol darned") thing. So let's get into one. I'm referring, of course, to "violet" vs. "purple." My sweetie, Martha, the last word in all matters of color, says that "violet" is the technical name for the color on the wheel. "Purple" is a lay person's casual term for the same color and nearby shades of the color. Y'all got it? (Martha's from Mississippi.)

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Rich Larkin

Silk and Knotting

Hi Richard, Hi Camille

I followed your exchanges with interest, but I've got a long way to go before I understand the nuances.

Under a magnifying glass, I couldn't find any trace of silk in the medallion -- the material is the same throughout -- a shiny, stiffish but not coarse wool.

I got a nasty sinking sensation when you asked me to confirm my asymmetric knot aim. I know what As knots are, but have never examined them at the macro level. My claim was based on general appearance and 'feel' -- the fact that the pile 'leans' towards the left and that there is much more resistance when rubbing the pile from left to right. Also, I compared the feel with a couple of Kazak Caucasians, which I understand always use the symmetric knot. I sure hope I haven't been misleading you guys all along.

Regards


Windsor

Windsor,

My comment about the knot description was based on the thought that, sometimes, the pile will lay to one side and mislead one into thinking "Persian" (i. e., asymmetrical) when the reality is "Turkish." This is especially apt to happen when the warps are slightly depressed, as in yours, causing the pile to lean.

The fail-safe examination is to look at the base of the knot where the yarn wraps around the vertical element of itself. In asymmetrical knots, one end of the pile is wrapped by the collar, and the other protrudes from between the collars. In the symmetrical version, both ends of the pile yarn are wrapped by the collar, and there is no pile end protruding between the collars. In many pieces with the Asymmetrical knot, you can fold the rug along vertical lines to expose the pile, and the line of pile strands between the collars will stand out prominently.

Kabish? (My best guess, looking at the images, is you were right the first time.)

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Rich Larkin

Hi Richard,

Thank you for the comment but as Frenchmen say with an "if" Paris would fit in a bottle.

As for the camel color, I'm afraid you missunderstood what I meant.
I was refering to the empty border and not to an open field (or empty camel-color field), and that this feature (empty border) is essentially found in old (rather antique) Malayer border guards and that it is usually of camel color.

Anyway, when I first mentioned Feraghan at page 1, I added Malayer- between brackets.
I also noted that the use of an early sythetic dye also points -beside the other features- to that region.

Regards and nice week-end to all.

Camille

Camille:

I take your point about the open border area, but surely, that usage is not limited to old Malayer work, right? By the way, my slight disapproval of the terminology ("Malayer-Sarouk," etc.) was not aimed at your using the terms, but rather, the rug study fraternity/sorority. We have to use the terms given to us. Anyway, my concern isn't that great.

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Rich Larkin

Sue's expertise

Sue,

I think Jack meant the following. Of all the people on Turkotek, you're the only one that I know of who actually cards, spins and dyes in a traditional manner. (I still intend to get you your spindles, etc. out in W. Afghanistan...I'm just not there right now). That's more important now than design interpretation.

So the question is...have you ever carded, spun and dyed camel wool? If so, where do you get it? How does it feel? Does camel wool stick together like sheeps wool...i.e. is it "scaley," or is it more "slippery"..non stickable?..how does take dyes?

Gene

ps. If I once again (in a long line stretching back 60+ years) have misunderstood Jack...I humbly apologize.

Hey Gene,

I think Jack was also inviting Sue to return to earth, as in, from outer space. Steve would be able to explain it. The idea is, it is sometimes hard to get what Sue is trying to tell us. Too much stream of consciousness, unsignalled turns and missing links in the chain. It tends to get under Steve's skin. For my part, I often think there's something really there if I were clever enough to follow the rationale. But we love Sue, and I'm with you, Gene, as to she could tell us a lot on this one.

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Rich Larkin

Because you're dyeing to know...

Hello all.



Above is a collage of Islamic-Indian battlements. I like Gene’s coin of the phrase “battlement border” though strictly speaking it should be “crenellated battlement.” A battlement is just a protective wall while a crenellated battlement has gaps to shoot through.

But the source for these borders could also be funerary monuments (but I guess they could be copies of fortrifications). Below are a couple of tombs in Khotan and Yarkand. Also below is proof that wool camel (as opposed to camel wool) do appear in rugs.



I went through six or seven hundred pictures of bags, mafrashes, khorjins, chuvals, torbas, hajavs, jimkz, buggmqts, krtsxziays, whtchamkllzats, and jiginsitazhitianains, etc. I also went through about 1-200 Khotan, Kashgar, Yarkand rugs. No Windsor-bag analog soup. I doubt E. Turkistan as a source because I can’t find any bags.

Rich, I know you were just kidding about violet and purple. You are so funny…I cannot resist giving you yet more information that I know you are dyeing (sic) to know.



The colors produced at near infra-red and near ultra-violet ranges, opposite ends of the visual spectrum, may appear to be very close (violet and purple), but they reflect wave lengths that are completely different, therefore absorb wavelenghts that are completely different. The question was what causes changes in certain colors of “purple.” The size, type bonds, overall charge, and complexity of the dye/pigment molecule is important, but also the energy of the photon wave length impacting the molecule has a lot to do with color change.

I just knew you were hungry for the information, and were kidding about the other stuff.

I also knew you were an exceptional Bostonian. You have the incredible good sense to locate a Mississippi honey. Next to Alabama and Baluchistan, Mississippi is the homeland of the most beautiful, complex, home-rural products, with lustrous sheen, perfect dyes that appear totally natural, symmetrical but with quirkiness that adds life to the composition..., and the people are terrific too. Did you show her my little 'southern cartoon, previously posted ?



Regards, Jack

Jack,

Yes I did show her that cartoon. Not only did she get it, she was in it!!!

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Rich Larkin

Monet's Fuchsine Fo

Hi all

Jack, I appreciate your picture research efforts. Thanks to everyone for trying to pin down