shar'nuff Afshars

I am interested in generating comments and a discussion about Afshar rugs. I’ll start by showing some examples I own, such as this one.

rug dimension, 6.3’ x 4.3’





below - folded over to see back

below - back closeup


The rug is worn almost to knots but very evenly with only moderate end and selvedge damage. As best I can determine, this one has:

Knots - asymmetric open-right, about 80 kpsi, 9/9 ratio;
Warps – white wool (still checking…might have some cotton), deeply depressed, moderate tight twist;
Wefts- fairly hefty two shoots dyed red.
Colors - all colors look good to me.
Selvedge - partly redone, original was 2 groups of three wefts overcast with a single wool red-blue barber poll stripe.
Ends - plain flat weave, color-striped, warp ends pattern knotted for several rows at one end and possibly originally looped (?) at the other.

The Afshar are now are noted to occupy three regions, some in the Causcasus, some near Kerman and some in Khorason near Meshed.

According to Edwards, all Afshar being good Turkmen, originally used the symmetric knot. However, Tom Cole noted asymmetric-right knots in 5 of 7 very old rugs featured in his article, “Outback Afshars” (see - http://www.tcoletribalrugs.com/article2.html ). Edwards noted that intermarriage introduced asymmetric knots and spread Afshar designs to nearby villages in S. Persia. Also, In N. Khorrason, suspected Afshar interaction with Baluch (and Kurd) design elements has long been noted. Jerry Anderson went so far as to equate the “Afshar” with the Ersari.

In the literature, to my knowledge no one has identified ways to distinguish between the three regions of Afshar weaving. I wonder if this one may be from NW Persia-Azerbijan area. The use of the multi-colored striped corners seems to me to recall the stripes in gendji rugs…also some of the ornaments such as the “stars” have a Caucasian look to me.

Comments including any clues to geography appreciated.

Regards, Jack Williams

Looks like a straight-forward 20th c. Afshar from Fars province in Southern Iran. The only Afshars that I have seen and can identify come from there.

follow up

Thank you for your comments Marvin. What are your thoughts on the differences between 20th C. and 19th C. Afshar rugs?

I believe this rug has the usual characteristics of an old Afshar including three blues, red wefts, deeply depressed warps, even open right weave, etc. Its colors seem good so it could be pre-WWI, possibly 19th C. at least in my opinion.

To me, the corner striping design, some of the field-design elements and most of the structural elements of this rug recall Gendje Azerbaijan rugs (which often seem to me to have some Turkmen characteristics). Therefore, I speculate an Azerbaijan-Afshari connection for this rug.

I understand that most Afshar rugs are attributed to the Kerman, S. Persia area. I don’t think anyone has attempted to systematically differentiate Afshar rugs between tribal groups, much less from regional areas, except maybe Cecil Edwards. But some indicators might tend to point to certain geographical areas for certain rugs.

Your thoughts on the usefulness of these two articles as beginning points for Afshar study would be appreciated. Tom Cole: http://www.tcoletribalrugs.com/article2.html , Eiland: http://www.tcoletribalrugs.com/article46AdraAfshars.html .

Thanks and regards,
Jack Williams

Hi Jack

I think the stripes are a weak basis for linking this to an Azerbaijan (or any other Caucasian) heritage. Note, too, that the piece has asymmetric knots, while Caucasian rugs are almost invariably symmetrically knotted (I'd say always, but someone would surely produce an exception within an hour).

Regards

Steve Price

The camel's nose...

Hello Steve,

Whoa...I am not saying the carpet is Gendge or Caucasian. It is Afshar. But...Opie's famous map of the location of the Afshar early in the 20 C. shows an Afshari concentration in Azerbiajan - and that is where the Afshari supposedly orginated before being partly deported by Shah Tahsemp and Abbas, possbibly also Nadir. Gendge rugs not only are commonly striped, but often have red wefts (unusual in the Caucasus?), multi knotted end warps, Kazak stars, etc., all elements found in this rug. This particular rug type I think might be the result of an ethnogensis design spill-over.

The Afshar are/were Turkmen, perhaps related to the Azeri, and often thought to be related to the Ersari. The design elements of Afshar rugs are all conventionally thought to have come from outside the group....according to some authorities, no one has definitively identified a specifically Afshari design, though it seems to me that there are definite "marker" designs.

I speculate that some Afshar rugs have a distinct Baluch element in the design, use coachinal, and...etc. Therefore they could well be from Khurrisan. Many Afshar rugs have a open endless repeat of large scale...things...botahs, vases, flowers... with an unusual but characteristic spatial relationship, sometimes compartmented like Bhaktiaris. I think these, and the Afshar medalion rugs, could be mostly from the Kerman, S. Persia area influenced by the designs of the region.

If the above makes sense, then it seems possible that there was a design spillover that affected Afshar rugs from Azerbaijan. And there is a class of Afshar that reproduces the Frankish rose exactly...similar to a certain type of Caucasian. And there are a couple of other unusual elements I've noticed in a lot of Afshar rugs which I need to document first.

I have two more Afshar rugs that I think illustrate regional points, plus the examples that started me thinking along this path. More later, and thanks for your comments,

Jack Williams

Hi Jack

If I understood you right, you told us in your first post that one of the three geographic regions where Afshars live is the Caucasus. You noted the stripes on this rug, and find them similar enough to those common on Genje rugs to make you think that this could be an indicator that the rug was made by Caucasian region Afshars. The red wefting is, as you note, a common characteristic of Genje and Kazak rugs. If I don't have that right, the rest of this post is best ignored, as I'm proceeding on the assumption that it is. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

The stripes don't look terribly Genje-like to me, I guess because their outlines aren't straight. But even if they looked more like Genje stripes, I'd be reluctant to use that as anything more than the faintest suggestion of a Caucasian origin, and I'd start by looking for other Caucasian indicators. The red wefts is consistent with it. So far, so good. But I don't know of any group in the Caucasus area that uses asymmetric knots. That constitutes a reasonable argument against the rug having a Caucasian origin.

In your later post (the one immediately above this one), it's not clear to me whether you think this rug was done by Afshars living in the Caucasus or by descendants of such Afshars who now live in south Iran.

Your perpetually puzzled co-pilgrim,

Steve Price

Cotton wefts make me think of 20th c.

Oh, I wish i was in the land of cotton...

Marvin, thank you for the explanation.

I deduce you refer to the use of cotton wefts because of the way the rug has held shape despite its wear and apparent age. I admit not testing the wefts. As originally noted, I think the wefts are wool because they are dyed red. I am under the impression that it is rare to find dyed cotton in older, nomadic-tribal type rugs, cotton being a radically different (and difficult) “animal” when it comes to dying. I’ll test the wefts when I get home later.

I still have some questions about the warps. They seem to be wool, but there is a faint odor that seems… different… when I do the burn test. However, Tom Cole addressed the issue of cotton and Afshar rug age in his article “Outback Afshars” http://www.tcoletribalrugs.com/zPersianArticle.html Here in part is what he says:

“…Nearly all aspects of the unusual group of rugs illustrated here [the seven “outback afshars’] are distinctive within an Afshar context, but perhaps the most striking features are their inconsistent structure and use of materials. The weave hardly resembles what we have come to expect in typical south Persian Afshar rugs of the 19th century. Commenting on the structure of the few 18th and early 19th century Afshar weavings he has examined, Parviz Tanavoli comments that they are '...closer in structure to Azerbaijani weaving than that of typical Afshar work. They usually have cotton or mixed cotton and wool foundations, are rather coarsely woven, with uneven backs and slightly exposed wefts'"… [emphasis mine].

Your experience may indicate something different. Your further thoughts would be welcome to me.

Regards, Jack

(Steve…more coming with a better pictorial explanation, if the men in white coats don’t find me first...methinks i am on difficult ground, venturing into the swamps of Caucasus).

For those with relatively unfamiliarity with the history of Afshar rugs, the following is quoted from Cole’s article…I think it a good summary of current scholarship at least as far as my look into the subject to date.

“Afshar tribal rugs present inherent problems to scholars and collectors. There is some doubt as to which of the myriad types of south Persian weavings should be classfied as Afshar, and we still have only a partial understanding of who the Afshar actually were. Parviz Tanavoli (HALI 37, 1988; HALI 57, 1991), Murray Eiland Jr. (Oriental Rugs from Pacfic Collections, 1990) and James Opie (Tribal Rugs, 1992) have contributed much to our grasp of the Afshar attribution, but the attempt to assign precise attributions to identifiable subtribes is often of limited value. However, the appearance of a hitherto unfamiliar group of weavings, apparently representing the early aesthetic of an unidentified group of Afshar weavers, means that the problem must be addressed.

The Afshar were Central Asian Turkic nomads, part of the ancient Oghuz Turkmen horde. They eventually populated areas of eastern Anatolia and, since the 16th century, have been present in Azarbayjan (northwest Iran). In relatively recent history, Afshar tribes have come to inhabit areas of northeast Iran (Khorasan) and northwest Afghanistan, and are perhaps best known in conjunction with studies of tribal rugs and peoples from the Kerman region of southern Iran.

After the seizure of power by the Afshar chieftain Nader Quli Khan -- who was crowned Nader Shah Afshar of Persia in 1737 -- diverse tribal groups swore allegiance and subsequently identfied themselves as Afshar. In the wake of Nader's triumphant sack of Delhi in the early 1740s, Afshar clans remained scattered from Kabul to Khorasan, living among the Afghan tribes, the Pathans, Tajiks, Uzbeks, and the tribes of the Chahar Aimaq Confederation. Khorasan itself remained under Afshar control until 1796. This patchwork of groups may help account for the confusing interpretation of later tribal census surveys by, among others, A. Cecil Edwards (The Persian Carpet, 1953). It is also unclear to what extent the Turkic peoples of the Kerman region are Afshar, or belong to other elements of the Qizilbash Turkmen Confederation, a significant power in the past of which the Afshar were at times a dominant member. We cannot therefore be certain of specfic attributions for rugs woven within this cultural milieu.”

Kizilbash

Of course the Kizilbash (Red Hats) were Turkoman and took over Iran around 1520 with Shah Tamaseph (Babur communcated with him and has a famous description of the battle near mashhad in which he crushed the Uzbeks in the "Baburnama").

But, horror of horror.. They were shi'i. The Turkoman tribes..Tekke in particular, north of Mashhad in late 1700's, early 1800's lumped any of the Turkomen, who fled to the protection of the Persian government, whomever was in power in Persia..the Safavids or their successors, even if they were Sunni..as "Kizilbash"..i.e. Shi'a...and as such they were apostate and therefore, fair game for the Sunni slavers.

So, Afshars..almost by definition at the time were Turk, and were Shi'i..and were Persian in the sense that the wrote in Persian-Farsi-Dari and probably spoke it (they may also have spoken Turkish but I'd bet by 1800 the language of the Afshars had become predominately Farsi just as it was in W.Afghanistan with the timuri and the Aimaqs). Which brings into play a couple of different philosophical concepts on religion...i.e "imami" -concept of the Iman..God's messanger on earth; and " 'Adl' " or "Devine Justice...which leads the Shi'i philosphically into "free will" i.e. "mankinds' free will to choose between good and evil")... .and definitively a different calendar.

Gene

PS. I partucularly like that Afshar...from an artistic standpoint, the "Stars motifs" or Worm Ourborous...or whatever in the field have a hottish center..going to an orangesish red..down to a red outline of a blue design, which from a distance turns almost purple..see impressionist or pointilist paintings for similar effects...giving it a reddish glow on the edges which from a distance seems to difuse the light from the whole.. a quite spectacular effect.

thesis of regional Afshar...off base?

Good evening Steve and all.

Gene, thanks for the nice review of the artistic nature of that rug.

Above is a map that shows the three centers of “Afshari” population, at least from my understanding, along with the three rugs I hoped to attribute regionally.

My thesis began with the thought that the “Afshari” are related to the “Azeri” population of Azerbaijan. I thought that since the population of NW Persia-Azerbaijan, is predominantly Azeri descendents, perhaps some Afshar weavings from greater Azerbaijan continued to be produced possibly to current times. If so, I thought that they might have a distinctive signature with some design (not construction) aspects similar to Gendge-Kazaks. But in the market place, they would be assumed to be Afshar and automatically attributed to S. Persia.

Below is a collage of Gendge rugs mostly from JBOC (and an extraneous Kazak lower right from NERS)…



And here are two Afshars, one from Danny Mehra’s collection…



Pictorially, these kinda illustrate the Afshar-Caucasus relationship I was trying make. I was hoping the striped corner, 8-point star, 28-plane cross-medallion (and smaller similar border decorations) Afshar rugs could be identified with NW Persia-Azerbaijan because of design elements. If so, we might be able to re-attribute the “striped corner” group of Afshar rugs to a different region from the Kerman Afshars. But, I am having doubts….

These next two rugs more or less illustrate the all-over field design Afshars in my opinion. One on the left is actually an unkown Kerman rug, about 200 years old.



It seems that most identified Afshari people are supposedly concentrated around Kerman...if the Turkmen semi-nomads who were identified in that area by Edwards are indeed “Afshari.” I agree that it seems reasonable to assume that most “Afshar”-rugs are probably from this area. Part of my original idea was that the Afshar “all-over” designs with certain distinctive spatial attributes (they don't quite seem "endless") are mostly from the Kerman area. This would include the "compartmented" endless designs.

Finally, below are two possible “Khurrison Afshars (?)” (



We know that there exist(ed?) an Afshar community around Meshed whose presence was confirmed by Frazier. Many rugs seem to be “Afshar-Baluch” or even “Afshar-Kurd.” I was hoping to develop some characteristics that might identify Afshar rugs likely to be from Khurison, such as the two above.

BUT...this whole thing is falling apart at the first hurdle. I still think we might be able to identify some characteristics of the “Afshar-Baluch,” but I just don’t know about the other areas at this point.

I’ll probably go ahead and show the other two “Afshars” anyway. What the heck.

Regards, Jack Williams

Hi Jack

As I think you agree, making attributions of subgroups is even dicier than making them in coarse groups. Designs and motifs move all over the place, and probably get reinvented from time to time, especially if they aren't terribly complex (stripes aren't terribly complex). Superimpose on that the grain of salt with which I think many published attributions need to be taken, and the problems become severe.

This isn't to say that I don't think such exercises are fun, only that it isn't a good idea to get too invested in any of them.

As an aside: Several years ago I visited eastern Turkey, and was hosted by a very kind Kurd who also happens to be a dealer in Van, selling mostly new rugs. The unpleasantness between the Kurds and the Turkish government is another topic for another day, but the relevant thing here is that my host would buy only Kurdish rugs for his inventory. I was astonished at the range of attributions I might have made, which included a stack of classic Afshar sofreh (he gave me one as a souvenir of the visit as I was leaving - a generous and unexpected surprise). When I asked why he had Afshar sofreh in his inventory, he explained that these were woven by Afshar Kurds. I'm sure he knows what he's talking about.

As a further aside: I visited the homes of several Kurdish dealer friends in Turkey, and all had Afshar sofreh among their floor coverings. These are such heavy, meaty textiles that they stay in place nicely in places where other rugs of comparable size wold be slipping all over the place when you walk on them.

Regards,

Steve Price

"A" is for "Afshar," and "Armanians?"

Good Afthernoon all.

Thanks to Steve for continuing to post this flood of pictures.

I still have some radical ideas about Afshar rug design elements. Where I was going with the proposed connection of Afshar to Gendge-Kazak was not the end of the story. I’ve a wild idea that there may be a weaving design connection between the Afsharis and... Armanians(!!!). I’ll show and tell a few Afshars, and then try to make the case.

The next Afshar is one I previously showed. The colors are unusually hard to capture. I’ve played with the colors (except Picture 4, the direct scan) trying to get them right and still allow seeing the design elements.


size approximately 3’ x 4’10”





Picture 4 – direct scan (below)

Note: the true color of the “flames” that surround all the elements is pink or yellow-gold, not white, but fading and photography limits has softened the colors so they photograph either white or light pink. I think that the only white originally in the rug was the vine meander border background and the border element outlining. (ad edit later: On second look, I think the vine meander border background was also bright pink originally!)

Though it is probably mid-20th C., this rug is one of my favorites. I bought it off the internet from a dealer that most of you know well. It was advertised as a Baluch, but when I queried its “Baluch-ness,” he replied that it came in with a bale of Baluch and it had typical Baluch structure including asymmetric, open left knots.

But, the seller was wrong. This rug has depressed warps but definitely has symmetric knots (I’ll add structure details to this post later). The field design is almost 100 percent Afshar, except for the two inner borders, which may be Baluch in design (see picture 5). The colors (seem natural though there are only 4 or 5) also are a little unusual in that the field colors, red and medium blue, are exceptionally translucent and evenly saturated...as if the wool was dyed before being spun into yarn.

The color combination seems a little "unAfshar" missing the peach-flesh tone. Perhaps adding back the original pink and gold that has faded would have produced the "Afshar aura."

The rug is not "fine" for an Afshar. But the central stepped medallion always awes me because of its stained-glass window look...in the wool the rug has a deep and abiding aura that radiates something...almost peaceful...its hard to explain.



I would like to attribute this to the Khurison province Afsharis and use it as an example of Afshar-Baluch. But I cannot be sure about that though the red may (or may not) be the default shade we associate with Cochineal dyes, and carpets can wander far from their point of weaving. Still it is a thought provoking, even beautiful example of rustic Afshar art, (which I particularly like).

Please comment if you like, and/or post an Afshar.

Regards, Jack Williams

Hi Jack,

I like both of those rugs, and being no expert I would simply attribute them as "Afshars".

Actually, I think that main border design element ("four inward arrows") is typically S. Persian and is often seen on so-called "Arab Khamsehs". Here is an example of an older version of that border from a "bird Khamseh" of mine. It is symmetrically knotted.

Cheers,

James.

Caucasian rugs

I agree with Steve, that all Caucasian rugs are woven with a symetrical knot. But I would be very interested indeed, to see one that is woven with asymetrical knots, either open right or open left, especially if it is late 19th century.

A is for Afshar, Afshan, Azari, Armenian, Asymmetric

Good Evening all.

I am far from being an expert on Caucasian carpets so I was hoping someone with deep experience would comment. Oh well…

"Caucasian" is both a geographical area and a carpet design group. I have never heard of an Afshar carpet being thought of as a "Caucasian" carpet...even though the recorded history of the Afshar initially finds them in Azerbaijan, and Afshar descendents still live in Azerbaijan. Likewise, many Kurds live physically in the Caucasus...but their rugs are still usually thought of as "Kurdish." (ad ed: is this true?)

But, even a cursory knowledge of the history of the region should make us a little wary of absolutes...especially given the deep involvment of Persia. Folks, it doesn’t take too much academic effort to discover that both symmetric and asymmetric knotting is used in Caucasian (geography and design) carpets.

I will quote from Rugs & Carpets from the Caucasus, The Russian Collections. By Liatif Kerimov, Nonna Stepanian, Tatyana Grigoliya, and David Tsitsishvili, Allen Lane/Penquin Books Aurora Arts Publishers, Leningrad, 1984.

After a discussion of the prominent historical role of Persia in Azerbaijan, p. 11, “ …By the second half of the eighteenth century Azerbaijan was a motley pattern of almost twenty larger and smaller khanates enjoying economic and political independence…The khans bent over backwards to imitate the Persian Shah, their feudal overlord. They built palaces in Persian architectural style…They had their own court poets, musicians and artists, as wekll as workshops where girls were instructed in the weaving of carpets after Persian designs…The close ties between Persian carpets and those made in the various khanates are observable even today…”

In the next chapter, the three basic types of Caucasian carpets – the Kuba-Shirvan, the Gianja-Kazakh and the Karabakh – and their many groups and sub groups are discussed. Following the discussion of characteristics of the Kuba-Shirvan type and sub groups, p. 19,

…”Kuba-Shirvans have ornate designs with pleasing heavy flowers and are knotted either in the symmetrical or asymmetrical knot…”

Following the discussion of the Gianja-Kzakhs type groups and sub groups, p. 20 “…Both the symmetrical and asymmetrical knots are used…”

The type of knots for the Karabakhs types was not mentioned.

Looking through the book at the fine examples, most of the pictures are of rugs with symmetric knots. But several examples have asymmetrical knots. When I get my scanner operational again, I’ll post several in a new post. This book has some of the example Armanian carpets that helped form my thoughts on some kind of unique design connection between Afshar and Armanian.

Regards, Jack Williams

Hi Jack

The conventional wisdom sure takes a beating sometimes, doesn't it? One of the things that I find so attractive about Rugdom is the frequency with which sand turns out to be the foundation material.

Regards

Steve Price

Hi Jack,

I don't know enough to comment on the reliability of structural analysis to place your first Afshar, but I would still say that based on the design elements, for me it fits very well within the S. Persian group.

Here are a few analogies to illustrate my reasoning.

1) Minor border of "connected boxes", which is common on Khamseh "bird rugs" (see the example).

2) The "8-pointed" star, which Patrick Weiler has also pointed out is a common S. Persian feature as seen on this "Sheka-Lur" rug of mine. Patrick refers to them as "snowflakes", and indicates that they are also seen in Veramin rugs.

3) The "oak leaf" designs and the two varieties of circular "floral" devices. These are shown in the Qashqai?/Khamseh? rug in the bottom picture.







In sum, I think that it is easier to place these design elements with S. Persian weavings than with Caucasian.

But that is just my two rupees worth....

James.

Hi Jack,

I’m no expert but I have a penchant for Caucasian rugs. It’s a few years that I’m following my passion reading books, browsing on the web and collecting. I don’t recall ever seeing a mention of Caucasians with asymmetrical knots with the exception of Ian Bennett: “The majority of Caucasian pile rugs have woolen warps and wefts and wool pile tied with a symmetric knot… Very few – indeed only the two rugs in the Keir collection mentioned above have been published – have asymmetric (Persian or Senna) knotting”. (Caucasian, page 16)

Of the two books presenting some structural analysis that I have, Gans-Ruedin (Le Tapis du Caucase) says: “La plupart des tapis du Caucase sont noués au moyen du noeud turc” (most of Caucasian rugs are knotted with the Turkish knot). Of the 143 knotted rugs illustrated in the book, though, 136 are said to be symmetrically knotted and of 7 there’s no mention of the knot type.

The other book is Kaffel’s “Caucasian Prayer Rugs”: of the 97 rugs 1 is flat-woven, 80 have symmetrical knots and of the rest there’s no mention.

So, of 239 specimens, 216 have Turkish knots and of the others we simply don’t know. Notice that there isn’t a single one explicitly stated as asymmetrically knotted.

Which makes me think that a Caucasian rug with Persian knots is nothing else than the exception confirming the rule.
I’m eagerly waiting to see your scans.

Regards,

Filiberto
P.S. “Caucasian rugs are invariably woven with the symmetrical knot.” Wright&Wertime’s (Caucasian Carpets & Covers)

Hi Filiberto

The Kerimov, et al book cited by Jack lists approximately 5% of the Caucasian rugs in it as having asymmetric knots. I'm not nuts about the book or most of the rugs in it, but I think the authors' reports on whether the knots are symmetric or asymmetric and whether they are truly Caucasians are probably reliable. Until Jack called it to our attention, I was (like you) pretty convinced that the conventional view - rugs of NW Persia, the Caucasus and all Kurdish subgroups - use symmetric knots only. It looks to me as though it's true for most, but not nearly all of them.

We live and learn (and forget!).

Regards

Steve Price

Hi Steve,

Do I sound skeptical? Perhaps it’s because I am. And I am more skeptical now as you say “the book cited by Jack lists approximately 5% of the Caucasian rugs in it as having asymmetric knots”.

5% is NOT a negligible percentage. Why nobody noticed it before? Besides, of the above-mentioned 216 rugs whose structure is indicated, at list 10 should have been asymmetrically knotted.
Skeptically,

Filiberto

Hi Filiberto

Bennett does mention that a few Caucasians have asymmetric knots. Why doesn't ayone else except Kerimov, et al.? I can think of a number of possible reasons,
1. Kerimov, et al. don't know how to identify an asymmetric knot, so they're wrong in those structural analyses. I think this is unlikely enough to be ignored.
2. Kerimov, et al. had some asymmetridc knotted rugs in their group, but those rugs weren't Caucasians. Since their rugs are all part of local ethnographic museum collections (some illustrate just how awful "museum quality" can be), I think their attributions are very likely to be correct - this isn't the right explanation.
3. Other authors simply call a rug something other than Caucasian if it has asymmetric knots. This is, at least, plausible.
4. A more thorough literature search would find a number of additional Caucasians with asymmetric knots. Could be?

It's always dramatic when a lovely belief and some ugly facts meet face to face.

Regards

Steve Price

Folks:

I vaguely recall having come across one or two rugs attributed to the Caucasus that had asymmetrical knots. They were not typical pieces or very old (or very attractive), perhaps some type of Soviet era production. Without doubt, the vast proportion of Caucasian rugs use the symmetrical knot, at least as to the production that has reached the west. I believe any exceptions are aberrations. I don't know what Kerimov, et al, are getting at, probably something between 2 and 3 in Steve's post (they're counting rugs we wouldn't call "Caucasian"), but I doubt that any 5%. or .00005%, have the asymmetrical knot.

P. S. to Filiberto: You are too an expert. Don't destroy our illusions!

__________________
Rich Larkin

Hi Steve,

I like your point # 3, but I sill have doubts.
To be more specific: I do not contest the possibility of asymmetrically knotted Caucasian, it’s the 5% percentage that seems to me incredibly high.

I don’t know that book but I notice that it has four authors. Kerimov is the most esteemed of the group.

Question:
Who exactly wrote about the 5% percentage? Was it a collegial statement? Did the percentage of 5% emerged before in other publications by Kerimov or/and al?

quote:

---

It's always dramatic when a lovely belief and some ugly facts meet face to face.

---

quote:

---

P. S. to Filiberto: You are too an expert. Don't destroy our illusions!

---

Hi Filiberto

The Kerimov book is at home, I'm not at the moment, so I can't check much. The four authors are all Soviets, one each from Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia and, I think (trusting my memory, always dangerous) Daghestan. My recollection is that each was affiliated with a state museum. Some Karabagh rugs appear in the Armenia museum, others in the Azerbaijan museum, as might be expected for a district that was claimed by both "republics".

Each textile in the book includes a table of structural data in its description - colors, materials, knotting, etc. I don't recall whether the book mentions who did the analyses. And I'm not sure that the sample (about 100 pile weavings) is large enough to be representative of the total population of Caucasian rugs, but there are about 5 in which the description of the knot type is "asymmetric". This at least suggests that we might expect the total population to include, perhaps, 2% to 10% that are knotted asymmetrically.

You don't have to convince me that much of what is written is wrong, but in this instance it seems likely that the authors know an asymmetric knot when they see one and that all the rugs that they show are really Caucasian. That leaves us with the possibilities that our beliefs in the near-universal use of symmetric knots in Caucasian rugs is wrong, that the published information leading us to that belief is wrong, or that Kerimov, et al. have a number of Caucasian rugs in their museums that differ from the overall population in knot type.

Regards

Steve Price

Mmmhh! Still, you will agree with me that it’s strange having 5 asymm. knotted rugs out of 100 in Rugs & Carpets from the Caucasus, The Russian Collections and not even a miserable one among more than two hundred in Gans-Ruedin and Kaffel’s books…

If the 5% is not explicitly stated by the authors but inferred only by the total of rug displayed in the book (which, I presume, is not the full corpus of the rugs owned by all the museums of Caucasus), am I entitled to think that this percentage is casually high and does not reflect the real situation?
Regards,

Filiberto

Filiberto,

My old friend and mentor, Harold Zulalian (late of Brookline, Massachusetts) used to say, somewhat sardonically, "An expert is a person who knows more about the subject than anybody else in the room."

On the subject at hand, I suggest that a large random sample of Caucasian rug production in country, or in the greater Russian collection area, is likely to be different from samples taken from the marketplaces outside that area. There may well be lines of production known within the region, perhaps somewhat obscure, that employ the asymmetrical knot. They may be known among persons such as the authors of the book, but generally unknown elsewhere. I suspect something along those lines accounts for the attribution. Nevertheless, I agree with you that more hard facts need to be brought to light before I will add asymmetrical knotting to my diagnostic checklist for Caucasian rugs.

__________________
Rich Larkin

quote:

---

Originally posted by Filiberto Boncompagni
Mmmhh! Still, you will agree with me that it’s strange having 5 asymm. knotted rugs out of 100 in Rugs & Carpets from the Caucasus, The Russian Collections and not even a miserable one among more than two hundred in Gans-Ruedin and Kaffel’s books…

If the 5% is not explicitly stated by the authors but inferred only by the total of rug displayed in the book (which, I presume, is not the full corpus of the rugs owned by all the museums of Caucasus), am I entitled to think that this percentage is casually high and does not reflect the real situation?
Regards,

Filiberto

---

Jack/Steve:

I gather you have seen the illustrations in the Kerimov book. Do the items said to have asymmetrical knotting look like Caucasian rugs to your respective practiced eyes?

__________________
Rich Larkin

Hi Richard

Some do, some don't. But, I should add, the same can be said of the symmetrically knotted rugs in the book.

Regards

Steve Price

I think I am with Filiberto on this one. I browsed through the first 150 or so plates in Azadi's Azerbaijani and Caucasian Carpets book and not one had asymmetric knotting.

Being a typical deductive reasoner, it would be important to see some examples of asymmetrically knotted Caucasian rugs. Even then, "a single swallow does not a summer make" (or something like that). If we are pursuing some association between Afshar and Caucasian weaving, then even an occasional example with asymmetric knotting wouldn't be a strong basis to move the hypothesis forward.

James.

Hi All

Like everyone else, I have a hard time finding significant numbers of asymmetrically knotted rugs attributed to the Caucasus outside of Kerimov, et al.'s book. I just ran through "The Gregorian Collection" ,and of more than 100 mostly Armenian rugs, only 1 has asymmetric knots, and that's as odd a ball as I've ever seen. It looks for all the world like a Turkmen main carpet, but has a lengthy Armenian inscription.

I'm starting to wonder whether the descriptions of the knots in Kerimov, et al. are correct. The book doesn't say who did the structural details.

Regards

Steve Price

Steve,

Of course, it is quite possible the pseudo Turkmen carpet was woven for Armenians (by someone else, somewhere else) rather than by Armenians.

__________________
Rich Larkin

Afshars in Caucausland

Hi all,

I have a Caucausian design carpet, very fine, with cotton in the wefts, which is single knotted, (I believe). I always thought it to be a copy from somewhere...I'll post a picture.

Re brother Jack, put your hand on your wallet. He was a powerf attacking chess player in his day..rated at oh..1700-1800 as I recall...but put him in a Southern bar with the usual racaous Papstr Blue Ribbon wild choruses, Jimi Hendrix blasting from the sound system, and the normal Alabama Fist Fights going on in the background...(oh I suppose something like Turkotek)...heck, I'd up the rating 300 points for betting purposes.

I just wouldn't at this point bet the farm on ALL Caucasians being Turkish knotted. Ok, I need to be convinced. From experiece though I just won't put money on the table.

Gene

Hi Gene,

Nothing better than a game of chess with Afghan carpet dealers over a pile of central Asian rugs, substituting Afghan green tea for the Blue Ribbon beer.

I certainly wouldn't bet against the existence of an occasional asymmetrically knotted Caucasian rug, but maybe in this case the exception will prove the rule.

Cheers,

James.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard Larkin
Steve,

Of course, it is quite possible the pseudo Turkmen carpet was woven for Armenians (by someone else, somewhere else) rather than by Armenians.

---

Hi Gene,

quote:

---

I have a Caucausian design carpet, very fine, with cotton in the wefts, which is single knotted

---

Hey gang,

There's lots of rugs out there, and most of us have seen examples we can't explain for one reason or another. But by and large, Caucasian rugs have symmetrical knots, yes?

__________________
Rich Larkin

A-symmetric B-asic C-aucasians

Good morning everyone.

Attached are the example rugs with asymmetric knotting from the previously cited reference.











It seems to me that there is nothing particularly sacred about knots. Of course the symmetric knot is associated with the Turkmen and the asymmetric knot is associated with Persian cultural influence. But...we know that many Turkmen tribes elsewhere use a variant of the asymmetric knot. We also know that Azerbaijan was ruled by Persia off and on through history and the eastern portion especially was certainly within the Persian cultural sphere of interest.



The population of the Caucasus has been in flux throughout history. Heck…population deportation from the area by Persian Shahs alone included both Armenians (to the Chahar Mahal region) and Turkmen tribes (the Afshar). Furthermore, the Mongols and later Timmerlame killed something like 80 percent of the population of Azerbaijan and presumably drove others out (the Quasquai?). Continuous war in the area between Ottoman, Persian, Russians and Khanates has certainly stirred the geography considerably.

A partial list of those forced elsewhere by the continuous tumult through the centuries includes the Scythians, Cimmeranians (presumably including Conan the barbarian), Bulgarians, Avars, Sakas, Kazars, Magyars, even possibly the Baluch (and you wondered when we would make that connection)..

Why the symmetric knot would be the only one used in such a polyglot region could be a good question, unless the answer is simply, “if it has asymmetric knots it is not Caucasian.”

Regards, Jack Williams

Design ethogensis?

Greetings all..

I also wanted to discuss something else…about Afshari design elements. I have noticed that where the Armenians reside, cruciform symbols seem to infiltrate the regional weavings. For instance below are a couple of examples of cruciform design symbols which are fairly common in “Baktiari” carpets from the Chahar Mahal.



And here are four Armenian rugs from the Caucasus (something about the second set is a little suspect to me despite their use in the book op. cite.)





These Armenian rugs were admittedly carefully chosen. Notice the designs recall common Afshar themes such as the unusually prominent role of the cruciform in one form or another. Notice also the use of what may be a variant of the “Legosi star,” and the stepped cross medallion.

Next are a number of Afshar rugs. These particular Afshar designs seem to feature the cruciform in various forms far more prominently than other nomadic or tribal type rugs. Note the designs that seem to echo the Armenian rugs shown above, the 8-point stars, the stepped cross medallion, etc.







These cruciform designs in Afshar rugs are what caused me to wonder if there were some historical Afshar-Armanian contacts in Azerbaijan. If so, I wondered if the design migration or connection could be traced through other Azerbaijan weavings? That’s why I originally tried to make the Kazak-Gendji connection to Afshari rug designs, partly because the relationship of Armenians and Kazak rugs seems to be pretty well established.

But if not Kazak-Gendje, what about a connection between Afshar and Armenian designs through Shahsevand confederation weavings? (There is a great Salon in archives, see: http://www.turkotek.com/salon_00096/salon.html )



Summary of topics...take your pick.

1. Knotting in the Caucasus;

2. Polyglot Caucasus population;

3. Armanian-Afshar design elements, cruciforms, Baktiari-Chahal Mahal;

4. Shahsevend (and-or Kizilbash) confederation and the Afshar;

5. And especially for John Howe, “Caucasian themes in Baluch weavings” (just kidding...).


Regards, Jack Williams

Hi Jack,

Topic #1: Knotting in the Caucasus.

First, many thanks for the scans and for bringing this topic to attention.
I ‘m still skeptical. Reason: adding "The Gregorian Collection" quoted by Steve, we now have 3 books presenting the structural analysis of more than 300 rugs and only one rug is indicated as having asymmetrical knots. That’s less than a 0.33% percentage, about which I am quite satisfied, although, to tell the truth, I’d prefer a 0.01%.
There must be something wrong with the 5% percentage of Kerimov and al’s book.

Topic of your Caucasian/Azeri/Armenian/whatever/Afshar theory.

The echoes you show are only part of all the echoes that rugs from Anatolia through the Middle East to Central Asia have in common. As Steve has written above This isn't to say that I don't think such exercises are fun, only that it isn't a good idea to get too invested in any of them.
(Sometimes I find myself indulging in the same kind of exercise, you know…. )

Regards,

Filiberto

"Invest" only in a sure thing

Thanks Filiberto.

I know that nothing can be proved through "design similarity." And I really am not that invested in the whole thing...I just started wondering about the cruciform in the first Afshar I bought, and it has bothered me ever since.

My original post was intended to just start an "Afshar" discussion to spur some personal research. This has actually worked...just learning that the "Kizilbash" (red hats) were a series of different confederations of Shia Turkmen, and the nature of "Persian armies" into the 20th C. has been interesting...the Caucasus questions were lagniappe.









To maybe invoke some “Afshar” discussion, I’ll post another “rustic,” unpolished, Afshar rug. This is possibly between-the-wars in age (possibly earlier but I doubt it) and if a rug can be called “entertaining,” this is one. The “field” of this rug is actually a representation of a “field.” I superimposed a picture of an opium poppy ... which I think definitively identifies the particular “crop” in the “field.”

I’ve noticed that some Afshar rugs have a certain style that uses an “all-over” design. Various objects are used in the fields, including botehs, vases, flowers, bushes, etc. Sometimes the design is compartmentalized, as in the famous “tulip” Afshars. But it seems to me that all of these have an Afshar signature look....as if the “all-over” pattern is not an “endless” one though it completely fills the field.

Note: There is considerable uncertainty in my estimates of dates of all of these Afshars. Cecil Edwards noted that the Afshari were still using natural dyes at least into the 1950s. He allocated considerable space for covering the Afsharis of S. Persia in his book and also showed quite a few rugs, identifying them by sub group and/or village. No one else that I’ve read has attempted to do this and I doubt that many people even know what he meant by “Afshar-Kutlu” (for example). If anyone has some rules of thumb for dating Afshar rugs, I would be most receptive

In any case, I like the look that the Afsharis give to a carpet...kind of an enlightened Baluch look.

Regards.Jack.

Ps: James, thanks for your contribution and input. I see your point and the similarities in some of the design elements in S. Persia. Eiland noted a similarity between some Lurs carpets and Afshars. But I don’t see the cruciform featured in Quasquai, or Kamseh confederation rugs like they often seem to be in Afshari rugs. I can only speculate… perhaps these Turkmen peoples were not in close contact with the Armenians before being driven south by the Mongols (?).

History and the Afshars

Gentlemen,

Jack?s thesis as I understand it is :

(1) the Afshars existed in three places:
--- the Caucasus,
--- NE Iran and
---in the area normally associated with their rugs, S-central Iran.

(2) Afshar rugs can be found with asymmetric knots, especially in NE Iran

(3) ergo, are there Afshars remnants left in the Caucasus and if so do they weave with asymmetric knots?

First, I'll defer to you all on the rug bits. But Jack's thesis is historically accurate as far as the Afshars are concerned. You all know this of course but here is a synopsis:

1) who are the Safavids:

--- a) the Safavids were a Sufi order located in the Caucasus in the early 1400's. (the Sufi's are historically linked to Neo-Platonic philosophy, as are the Shi'i and were profoundly influenced by Christianity. The founder was a Sunni, Kurd or Turkoman named Shakh Safiyu'd Din (I wonder if the name should have been Sufiuddin?). They were highly respected by the Timurids and by the end of th 1400's had a huge number of adherents. The peaceful Sufi sect, suddenly became aggressive and attacked the Georgians and Armenians and took a swipe at Iran. The also drifted into the Shi'a orbit, and became so extreme that their views were "ghulat" or non-Islam.

--- b) One of Safiu'd's successors, his great-grandson organized the "Kizilbash" (red heads), referring to a twelve point red hat they wore symbolizing the 12 Imams. The came to believe their leader was the Mahdi and divine, the Imam on earth. They united 7 Turkoman tribes (Afshars included) in the Caucasus and under one of the great-great grandsons, Isma'il, took Shirvan, Baku, Ardebil and the whole of Azerbaijan, from there all of Persia and a good bit of Iraq. (Late 1400's, early 1500's)

PS: Here are the original 7 Turkoman tribes which made up the Kizilbash: Ustajlu, Shamlu, Takalu, Baharlu, Zulkadar, Kajar and Afshar. (the Baharlu per Edwards p.288 are listed as part of the Kamseh federation now..and weave in both the Turkish and Persian knot.)

--- c) Isma'il was so popular among the Ottoman Janizeries that Salim the Grim decided to massacre all Shi'i in Anatolia to prevent any uprising. Ultimately Isma'il lost a battle on the plain of Chaldarian and Salim took Tabriz though he withdrew shortly afterwards. Had Isma'il won the battle, the whole area might now be Shi'a. (1515?)

--- d) finally to forstall any follow-on risings, Isma'il systematically elemented the various Sufi sects in Iran. To this day, Shi?a Islam, which has a lot in common with the Sufis, has no real Sufi (Mystical) components.

2) Shah Sevans: A century later, under Shah Abbas the old order of the Qizilbash was deteriorating. Abbas had to rely on the 7 Turkoman tribes for his army (I've a list of them somewhere but the Afshars are definitely one of them), 60,000 calvary. They obeyed only their chiefs. This was fickle and left him subject to blackmail. To counter this he formed a professional army staffed mostly with Georgian, Armenian and Circassian Christian slaves who converted to Shi'a Islam, imitating the Ottoman Jannisaries. In addition, though, he created the Shah Savan tribe, a new tribe in which he invited members of all tribes to enroll. They did by the thousands and relieved Shah Abbas of reliance on the Kizilbash warlords. (early 1600's)

So, thus far the Afshars are Turk, originated in the Caucasus, were part of the kizilbash, and were Shi'a.

In addition to this, indisputeably by the late 1600's there was a large Afshar contingent living on the NE Border of Iran. Nadir Shah, "the Great Afshar," was born in Khorrasan on that border about 1680, was enslaved by an Uzbek raid from Khiva as a teenager, escaped and founded his career by taking Mashhad and all of Khorrasan and ultimately just about everything else including Bokhara, Samarkand, Merv, Kandahar, Kabul, New Delhi, the Peacock Throne.... And he very definitely was an Afshar. He was assassinated in Khorassan on the N. Border visiting kurds moved to the area by Shah Abbas.

PS: Nadir Shah started out a Sunni; he attempted to abolish Shi'ism. Towards the end of his life, though, he dreamed of starting a new religion and had translations made of both the Jewish scriptures and the New Testament...(I'm not saying the crosses so prominent in Afshar rugs are related to this period...but its worth a look). he went down fighting assassins from his own Afshar tribe. (1747)

So, Afshars were in the Cacausas in 1500; They surely were in NE Iran as of 1700. There are NE Iranian Afshar carpets which are single knotted... There is a traditiion linking them to Armenia and Georgia and to the Shah Sevans....Historically, Jack?s hypothesis is plausible.

So what did the Afshars weave, where and when? And are therer Afshars still made in the Caucasus? I'll let you all decide that.

Gene

Hi Gene,

Thanks for the history lesson, which demonstrates that if you dig enough in history you’ll find why rug styles are so inter-mingled i.e. because people were so often displaced and mixed with others.

But now I’m at a loss with what is exactly Jack’s hypothesis… I’d be grateful if one of you could condense it in few words.

Gene, you use again the expression “single knotted”. Assuming that it doesn’t mean “single wefted” nor “a-rug-with-a-single-knot” I guess it should be “symmetrically knotted”, right?
Regards,

Filiberto

asymetric

Hi Filiberto,

When I was first introduced to rugs 35 years ago, the description/terms for carpet knots (not wefts) were "Persian" or "single" or "Senneh" and "Turkish" or "double" or "Ghiordes." Since then I guess the "single-double" term has fallen out of favor and the "assymetric-symetric" has risen. When I say "single" knotted, I am of course referring to the Persian knot. Sorry for the lack of clarity.

The summary of what I think Jack was trying to say, is in the first paragraph of the above historical synopsis; i.e.
-- Afshar tribesmen are located in 3 different places;
-- They have been known to weave Persian knot carpets;
-- Could it be that they make Persian knotted carpets in the Caucasus still?

As I understand the response so far; There are no/zippo Persian knotted carpets made in the Caucasus; There are no Afshars located there. There are several really good scholars of Caucasian carpets on this site, you among them (ok, I avoided the word "expert" but pls accept "scholar"), so I'll let you all delve into the question further.

Gene

PS. And by the way, the "Gendje" stripes in Jack's Afshar set mentioned above, remind me rather of Steve's fantastic Baluch with the stripes in the field which curved. See also plate 8 of David Black's "Rugs of the Wandering Baluch." I wouldn't mind seeing that rug again. It must be from khorrasan...maybe around Ferdows?...where Afshar (as well as Arab) influences have been noted in Baluch carpets.

Lotsa knots

G'day all,

Referring to Filberto's last post, single-knotted I have read to indicate the separated ends of the assymetric knots, single meaning that there is a 'wrap' on the warp between each woolen end of the knot; double-knotted was read to mean 'together', two singles together, no 'wrap' between them, ergo double, or symmetric.

This is what Gene was getting at I think. Its a form of 'knot speak' usage.

Regards,
Marty.

Apols

Sri Gene, your reply post to Filberto hadnt arrived when I read Filberto's and it sparked my memory - somewhere read - and I replied ref the knots.

Dash it - guzzumped

Regards,
Marty.

Afshar Kotlu

Hi all,

jack mentioned an "all over" cash-crop Afshar design and mentioned an Afshar "Kotlu". Here is an Afshar Kotlu, allegedly taken from the Khan of Kalat's palace in Baluchistan which I've shown before; might as well put it here too:



Kotlu seems to be a Turkish word. JBOC has a description (I think he calls it Qotlu or some such) but this description doesn't match the above, which was attributed personally by JA. Note the opium poppies in the border. Note the furniture (make up table) which spouse refused to let me move.

Gene

PS. Note the gradual fading which seems to take place from upper to lower parts of the carpet.

sub-groups

Hi Marty,

Thanks for the help. By the way I think the Gazzumpzais are a sub-set of the Dashitis...in turn part of a Kurdish group who attached themsleves to the Brahui around 1500. ('')

Gene

Luverley

G'day all,

These nice pieces shown by Jack and Gene might be usurp't by viewers with another 'motif' as indicator for 'happy' weavers - I remember the ructions caused in an earlier display of speculation on the pages.

There is little doubt the two Afshars shown are NICE! Didn't Thompson, or perhaps Bennett say that Afshars are one of the last weaving groups to still produce good original designed rugs?

Also, I find it terrific that the regular contributors here generally seem to find some fabulous carpets to show, from a seemingly bottomless trunk.

It sort of leaves one (moi') feeling a bit inadequate in the rug species quality/interest realm

Wonderful.

Regards,
Marty.

Hi Gene and Marty,

Single-knotted used to mean Persian knot? Thanks.

Scholarship apart, here’s why - in a very un-scholar way - I don’t think that Jack’s rug could have been woven in the Caucasus:
Weavers of that region, in spite (or perhaps because) of their multi-ethnicity managed to blend several weaving traditions (of which the Persian was without any doubt a very important one) in a common, unique style… Think about New Orleans’ music, if you want an example in a different folk art…
A collateral result is that it’s very difficult sorting out who wove what.

The Afshar rugs presented by Jack, even if they have some common elements with Caucasians (Armenians etc.) rugs are too easily distinguishable from the general Caucasian style. I mean: that’s Caucasian influence gone East and mixed with other Persian styles.

Jack, I suggest a different and more difficult exercise: try sorting out Afshars from other weavings of the Kerman province. Especially those flat-woven items that perhaps are Afsahrs or maybe Baluch.

In a different thread, of course.

Un-scholarly,

Filiberto

Mutts

G'day all,

As Im at work and awake, a spanner (in the works) just came to me!

Some may remember, (Gene will for sure) I once displayed a curiously coloured rug from Quchan/ Khorrasan with many dogs as the figures in the quadrants of a turkman sort of gul in the field.

This rug, supposedly by Kurds pushed to NE Iran by Shah Abbas, has assymetric knots, when Kurds supposedly knot Turkish. Also this rug has been described by one more knowledgable than I, as NE Iranian Afshar!

So possibly by Afshari Kurds, in a sort of turkman design...

With all the transpositions of people from whence to where, I feel it is more than likely a cross miscegenation of style, weave, pattern and colour can occur pretty well anywhere in the weaving world.

To accurately identify any rugs definite ORIGIN/weaving spot, that is the GPS spot on a map, especially an old rug, is gonna be really werry hard by us today, (except in the case of new rugs, perhaps by the dealers picker who found it outback, and maybe not even by them, as it COULD have come from anywhere prior to being sold to the picker, but unlikely).

In any case, I always enjoy these discussions leading from provenance suppositions because we all learn, and remember, from them. Something for everyone...

Luv Turkotek,
Marty.

Dog pound

Marty,

I well remember the "Dog Pound Rug," which when soaked in a particular fluid, and when placed in your doorway repels the roos. There's a down side as I recall....some fading, right?

Gene

Afshar is the word

Good Evening all

Filiberto, I haven’t been clear…I apologize. I wanted to talk about Afshar rugs because I like them and not that much has been published about either the rugs or the Afshar themselves.

To get the conversation started, I introduced something I had noticed… design elements that are common in Afshar carpets such as cruciforms and cruciform-like medallions. The only other carpets I’ve seen that have a lot of cruciforms in them are Armenian…and as the Afshar originated in Azerbaijan, historically at least, I was looking for a connection as well as an Afshar conversation.



I initially thought perhaps there was a way to distinguish between Azerbaijan Afshar, Kerman Afshar, and Khorasan Afshar weavings…but I pretty much abandoned that idea for the time being and said so. And I’ve never claimed that Afshar carpets are “Caucasian.”

But…the Afshar are definitely still a part of the Azerbaijan population, or at least they were at the end of the 19th C. Either:...

(1) The Afshar of Azerbaijan do not weave anymore, or ;(2) They weave and their carpets are not thought of as “Caucasian” even though they are physically woven in the Caucasus geographic area, or;(3) They weave carpets that look/are traditionally “Caucasian.” If they do this, I don't know how we would know it unless they do something odd structurally. What knot they use and the whole 'Caucasian carpet knot thing just came up as incidental to the larger Afshar design question.

There is a proper skepticism about “Caucasian rugs” occasionally woven with the asymmetric knot, and perhaps rightfully so. Perhaps “Caucasian rugs” are a design definition and have less to do with the geographical region. If so, perhaps there are things woven in the geographic Caucasus region that are not “Caucasian”...just as there are Baluch, Aimaq, Kurd, Turkmen, Afshar in Khurason

I like Caucasian rugs. But right now I am particularly interested in Afshar pile carpets, and less interested in kilims, at least at this point.

I have just finished reading a short, on-line description of life in Persia in the mid 1890s. It has a wealth of information that helps understanding the still-feudal/tribal society of that time. Of special importance to this discussion is the author’s association of the NW Persia-Azerbaijan Afshars with the Shahsevends.

PERSIA REVISITED (1895) By GENERAL SIR THOMAS EDWARD GORDON

http://books.reseau.org/fr/page.php?p=1&Submit=Envoi&id=13064

P. 30; “…A marked instance of this was shown in July, 1892, when Jehan Shah Khan-Ilbegi was deprived of the chieftaincy of the Afshar section of the powerful Shahsevend tribe, who range from Ardebil to Tehran. The famous Nadir Shah was originally a simple trooper of this tribe, and belonged to the colony of it which was planted at Deregez on the Turkoman border…”

The whole article is a good read. Also special is the discussion of the “military tribes,” and the Bakhtiari army contingent that he associates with Luris.

P. 35; “…On this occasion the smart appearance of the Bakhtiari horse attracted particular attention. The Persian bystanders showed their pride in these popular mounted mountaineers by the admiring exclamation, 'Here come the Bakhtiaris!' They were very noticeable by their white felt, round, brimless hats, and the good line they preserved when passing. The Bakhtiaris (Lurs) are the most numerous and powerful of all the military tribes, and are noted for their superior martial qualities both as horse and foot. They are of the most ancient Persian descent, and have held the hills and valleys of Luristan from time immemorial; while all the other military tribes may be said to be of much later date, and of foreign origin--Arab, Syrian, Turk, and Tartar..."

The history of the Afshar tribe is pretty deep, the Afshars being one of the seven great Azerbaijani Turkmen tribes (another being the Qajar tribe who spawned the Qajar dynasty which lasted into the 20th C.) Their Shia history and the history of the Qizilbash…the anti-shia pogroms in Turkey and Afganistan are all interesting. And I like their rugs.

Regards, Jack Williams

Hi Jack,

Now it’s more clear.

quote:

---

the Afshar section of the powerful Shahsevend tribe

---

A historical question

Filiberto,

There are several versions on the origin of the Shahsavan but the most credible credit it to Shah Abbas in his attempt to break up the old 7 tribe Qizilbash warlords. in the early 1600's, .in other words it was an artificial creation of a Shi'a Turk who was Shah of Iran. It also seems clear that some particularly obstreperous (one thinks of twin brother) Afshar tribal elements were removed by Shah Abbas from the Azerbaijan area to the area S of Kerman..and other elements to the Turkoman-Afghan frontier in Khorrasan. I've even found a good summary of this in Italian...

Now here's the question. Some elements of the Afshar in Azerbaijan joined the new government sponsored "confederation" of "Shahsavan" created by Shah Abbas...really an almost mercenary martial undertaking it seems. But huge numbers of the Afshars and the other original 7 turkoman Savavid tribes didn't buckle under. So in the Azerbaijan area, what happened to the Afshar who didn't join the Shahsavan? Were they annhilated?..moved to Kerman?...Are they still there?..Do they make Shahsavan style carpets now rather than Afshar or are there still Afshar carpets made in Azerbaijan?

As for the Persian-Turkish knot question...Edwards maintains that the true Nomadic Afshar around Kerman..as of 1900-1948 wove in the traditional Turkic knot...but they intermarried, their designs were copied by setted Fars weavers and thus, a number of Persian knotted Afshar design carpets could be found...and after the rise in the price of wool (he doesnt' say when but assume this is WWI era), Afshars traded wool for settled area cotton and used that in their Warps.

Then there remain the NE Iran - Khorassan Afshars. I can understand how, by intermarriage and trading, Turkish knotting tradition can turn into Persian knot...Just look at the Turkomans...the Timuris, the Aymaqs... And I now start to have in inkling on Jerry Anderson's assertions 35 years ago on the interlationship in Khorrasan between Kurdish designs, Turkoman, Afshar and Baluch...

So now the question I have..its more historical and cultural than ruggie, is ... what happened to the NW Iran-Azerbaijan-Caucasian Afshars, who refused to follow the new government sponsored Shahsavans and remained true to their own Afshar tribal chiefs? Are they still there in Azerbaijan-Turkey? What do they weave? In what knots and designs?

Here's a photo essy on the Shahsavan by the way which show some carpets in the makeing..as of the time of the overthrow of the Shah:

http://www.iranian.com/Travelers/2003/January/Migrate/1.html

Gene

PS. I suppose you, as a European, could predict that the Brits are of course taking credit for all of this. The Sherley Brothers arrived in Iran c1598 right after Shah Abbas' victory over the Uzbeks ...among the members of his mission was a cannon founder. The Shirleys assisted Allah Verdi Beg (Filiberto...I can't resist singing somehow in connection with the second name..maybe "Nabucco"??) in creating the first regiments of Abbas' regular army meant to supplant the 7 Tribe Qizalbash cavalry and most important the creation of an artillery corps. "In the place of a feudal force of horsemen Persia soon possessed an army fit to meet that of Turkey in the field.".... Sir Anthony Shirley wrote of his mission to Persia via Russia at length...its worth taking a look at.

Hi Gene,

I don’t know the answers to your questions, but about the knots matter I have the following opinion:
If intermarriage about different tribes could have caused a change from the traditional Afshar symmetrical knotting to the asymmetrical one, that couldn’t have happened in the Transcaucasian area. Because all the weaving groups there (Azeri, Kurds, Armenians and so on) are known for using the Turkish knot…

If there are exceptions, as discussed before in this thread, I cannot explain them, unless there is a (so far undiscovered) small ethnic group that used the Persian knot in Transcaucasia and the Afshar “intermarried” with them. But I have HUGE doubts.

By the way, all the examples of Persian-knotted Caucasian rugs posted above from Kerimov’s book look like regular well-known Caucasian types from Kazak, Karabagh and Kuba areas generally woven with Turkish knots.

Regards,

Filiberto

Just one more point, following Filiberto's observation about the few examples of Caucasian design rugs with asymmetric knotting shown by Jack earlier in this thread. It strikes me that these few examples are completely dissimilar to each other in terms of design and putative weaving region. So if asymmetrically knotted Caucasian rugs are due to remnants of Afshars then they are widely dispersed into various weaving areas and have wholly adopted Caucasian designs without any discernible introduction of non-Caucasian designs. If all of the asymmetrically knotted Caucasian rugs had some design or regional commonality, then perhaps the Afshar-Caucasian hypothesis would seem more plausible, at least to me. But there doesn't seem to be any such consistency in these examples. Applying "Occam's razor", my interpretation is that there is a more simple explanation for the presence of these few stray Caucasian rugs with anomalous structure:

1) The structural analysis or printing is incorrect.
2) For some reason, there was a very small percentage of Caucasian weavers who preferred to use the asymmetric knot.

James.

Hi James.

I agree, and your point # 2) For some reason, there was a very small percentage of Caucasian weavers who preferred to use the asymmetric knot could be explained with the existence of a few Persian weavers married with local Caucasians but retaining their habitual asymmetrical knotting.
… which could work well with a percentage asymm. to symm. of 0.3% or less but NOT with a 5%, of course. For this, we need your explanation # 1) too.

I have also to emphasize that there’s absolutely no proof that Afshars in Transcaucasia wove with Persian knots. On the contrary, they should have stick to their traditional symmetrical knots, just like the other surrounding Caucasian groups did.

Regards,

Filiberto

Listen, or don't, for a second aside.
Just as there are traceable formulas used in rugs through their fibers, their fiber preparation, their spinning, and other structural properties, there are traceable formulas used in rug design. All of these formulas predate history just as the earliest historians acknowledged they did. They are a legacy.
I don't know who this Occam is, who's name crops up from time to time here, but if it's simplicity he aims for he'd do better with a laser than a razor -- not as messy.
The answers are in the math. All of them. The keys to the art in weavings are in the science of weavings, according to me. Carry on now, however you choose. Sue

Hi Sue

William of Occam lived about 700 years ago, well before the invention of the laser. A razor was pretty high tech for his day.

Since none of us can read minds, would you be kind enough to explain the content of your last post? For example,
1. What it is that can be answered from the math, especially what the inputs and operations involved in the process are.
2. Can you provide a few examples of the traceable formulas in fibers, their preparation, spinning, other structural properties, and rug design?

In the absence of any of that, all your message says is that you
1. think you know the answers to many, perhaps all, the questions raised in this thread, and
2. if the rest of us were as smart as you, we'd know them to.

In the absence of evidence to the contrary, I think it's reasonable to suspect that you're wrong on both counts.

Regards

Steve Price

Hi Sue,

Occam's principle was that when assessing different theories, the ones that lie nearer the truth rely on fewer assumptions. The razor was to shave away the unecessary assumptions. Of course, the truth is not always simple, but trying to prove something that is false usually takes a lot more effort than explaining a truth.

I have an inkling that you are alluding to some issues about rug lineage that extends well beyond the scope of this particular discussion. I think it might interest me, but you would have to take it a bit further.

James.

Filiberto,

For what it's worth, even 0.3% is high. That's three out of a thousand. I doubt there are three out of ten thousand with asymmetrical knotting.

__________________
Rich Larkin

general rant

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Confusion reigns...I have never said Afshar wove those Caucasian rugs with an asymmetric knot. The whole issue of Caucasian rugs with asymmetric knots just appeared out ot thin air. As interesting as it may be I don't have a theory about that and I think it would make a marvelous salon. My thesis is that Afshar in Azerbaijan wove identifiably Afshari rugs, if they wove rugs...not Caucasian rugs. I just cannot prove it right now..but my confidence in phylogenisis is strong.

First, I wonder what knot the Afshar used orignally? I re-read T. Coles article, "Outback Afshars (http://www.tcoletribalrugs.com/article2.html ). It seems possible that the oldest Afshars, 18th-early 19th C., used asymmetric open right knots. I think it interesting to contemplate what knots were used in the older Turkmen rugs in Central Asia, Salor for example?

Second point, Azerbaijan doesn't start or stop at the Russia-Iran border. Greater Azerbaijan extends well below Tabriz and includes the Hamadan area...yet no one would call a nice Heriz rug a "Caucasian" rug. Why would we think that suddenly a political border laid down mid 18th C. causes an absolute change in carpet styles, producing "Caucasian" rugs on one side.?

In the article I posted, Gen. Gordon's "Persia Revisited," he tells a 1895 story of an Afshar Chieftan from NE Persia with 3,000 men armed with Martini rifles. Assuming his account is accurate, this implies a supporting Afshar population of at least 15-20,000 Afsharis in NE Persia-Azerbaijan. And..he notes they range from Tehren to Ardebil in the Caucasus...i.e. on the Russia-Persia border.

My point... people who apparently identified themselves as Afshar lived in NE Persia-Azerbaijan in 1895..we know this...and we know about the earlier settlement of Afshars in formerly Kurdish lands following the revolt of the Kurds.

We can find similarities in weaving designs and styles between Kerman-Afshar rugs and Meshed/Afganistan-Afshar rugs despite the people being separated by 500 miles, 400 years, and a very dry desert. Would it surprise anyone if the reminent Afshar in NE Persia/Azerbaijan wove in an identifably Afshar manner with identifably Afshar designs? I think that is somthing Tom Cole was touching on in his article.

It seems to me that "Caucasian" is a design concept. It is not hard to imagine conventional wisdom saying that Caucasian rugs with an asymmetric knot are suspect. In that case, the end result is self-fulfilling... no one publishes Caucasian rugs with asymmetric knots and it would be easy to believe there are no such.

Likewise, to me it doesn't seem hard to picture Afshar-like rugs woven in Azerbaijan, ether side of the border...yet when they were recognized they're attributed to S. Persia, at least in the West. I just don't have a way to prove it at this point. This is a varient of the Phylogensis vs Ethnogensis argument.

I'll post Edward's comments about the Afshar tomorrow and the rugs he attributed to sub-groups.

Regards, Jack Williams

Hi Jack,

Thanks for clarifying your point. I think that some of this line of debate was related to your previous statement (especially point #3):

"But…the Afshar are definitely still a part of the Azerbaijan population, or at least they were at the end of the 19th C. Either:... (1) The Afshar of Azerbaijan do not weave anymore, or ;(2) They weave and their carpets are not thought of as “Caucasian” even though they are physically woven in the Caucasus geographic area, or;(3) They weave carpets that look/are traditionally “Caucasian.” If they do this, I don't know how we would know it unless they do something odd structurally."

My current understanding of your thesis is that there might be remnants of Afshars in the Caucasian region, but they would not weave typical Caucasian rugs. Instead, they would weave Afshar rugs with designs that are influenced by Caucasian/Armenian designs.

I suppose that could be true, but I still think your rug that you presented as an example has strong S. Persian design elements.

Cheers,

James.

Hi Jack,

You said:

"We can find similarities in weaving designs and styles between Kerman-Afshar rugs and Meshed/Afganistan-Afshar rugs despite the people being separated by 500 miles, 200 years, and a very dry desert."

Did you establish a known type of Afshar production from the Meshed/Afghanistan region? Maybe I missed something. You posted that one piece on the map, but I thought you were speculating about the place of origin.

It seems that just the ethnic composition of the Afshar is a very complicated and multi-faceted matter, nevermind their weavings. This no doubt accounts in part for the rather varied character of the weavings we can attribute to them with some confidence. My own view of those has been that they have come chiefly from the greater Kerman area, and that they reflected strongly either the persianate style of that city or the tribal character of the neighboring South Persian tribes, notably, Khamseh (e. g., the Danny Mehra example), along with certain recognizable "Afshar" designs that seem to be original. I'm not aware of other documented sources of Afshar weaving, although, like you, I have often wondered what if anything those Afsharis to the North in Iran were doing.

Not the least fascinating aspect of the "Outback Afshar" collection in Tom Cole's article is how much they do look Afshari, offbeat as they seem to be. If they represent the work of remote Afshari weavers from down towards Baluchistan (Cole is cautious on attribution), it says something about the persistence of tradition among weaving groups. Perhaps it gives some hope for identifying Afshar production from the Azerbaijan area.

__________________
Rich Larkin

Thanks, James, I get Occam's idea now and will try again with that in mind because stuff like knot choices in rug weaving are usually rather incidental in the grand scheme of things. Not that such things can't have value, they very much do, but that their value has no real context without understanding the system first.
The underlying and overarching system which coordinates the subordinant formulas in the system, is, I think, essentially a practical planispheric application of spherical geometry. In rugs the most prevailent reliance on the system can be measured as being based on the square root of two and the square root of three. It doesn't end there but I'm going to now.
Anyway, the best designed rugs whether "tribal, "village", or "court" conform to variations of uses of the system and because it is mathatical it can be proved by measuring the phi, (not to be confused with pi), relationships of any rug's proportions. One way you can start doing this is to plot out any rug's design with graph paper over a copy of it's picture using a compass and straight edge. (There are other ways, too.)
When you do this, first off, you will be able to see that motifs "grow" from the center outward in golden mean proportions in rugs where the system was fully understood by it's designer. Where the system was understood it was used to it's capacity on every measurable aspect of a rug. You will understand exactly, and without any doubts, why this is so very soon into this method of exploration. I hope this is clear because I think it's a very important system to understandand shouldn't be neglected. Sue

Afshars in the literature

Gene, this is a rug that was in David Black’s Atlas... in the “Meshed” section. It was called a “Doruksh” carpet.


“This Doruksh carpet has an elaborat design of botehs…which are used in the border and field. Meshed, late ninetheenth century,…7’2” x 4’2”.

Dorukhsh is a village in the Quainat way south of Meshed…and a Dorukhsh carpet is a “jufti knotted Quainat carpet woven in a village floral style.” Edwards has the following to say, p. 170: “The Dorukhsh area is situated in the hills about 45 miles NE of Birjand … Old Dorukhsh carpets are recognizable by their close weave and their large bold medallions, usually on plain fields – either cochineal red or cream. ..Another favorite design of old Dorukhsh was the large pine boteh pattern."

But, your rug doesn’t look at all like the Dorukhsh picture shown in Edwards, nor does the rug pictured in Black. I'm certain JA was right on and your rug is classic Afshar...and I think the rug from Black et. al. is too.

RE: Cecil Edwards… I thought I would share a summary of Cecil Edward’s notes about the Afshari, and the pictures he included in his monumental work. The pictures are in black and white But these are the only Afshar carpets I’ve seen with a sub attribution attached to them. Unfortunately, Edwards did not define these sub categories, though he obviously knew what they were. I hope these terms have not been lost completely and someone here can define them.




279. Afshari (Al-Saadi) Rug (c. 1940). 280. Afshari (Parizi) Rug (c. 1945).



Edwards notes the ascension of Ismail in Azerbaijan and became Shah with the help of the 7 Azerbaijan Turkmen tribes, of whom the Afshar were one. He then notes the exile of the Afshar to the Kerman area by Shah Tahmasp in the early-mid 16th C. He does not mention the transfer of Afshari to Khurrisan by Shah Abbas.

According to Edwards, the Afsharis of Kerman have two main divisions, the Afsharis and Buchakchis. Also, another Turkman tribe, the Shuli, are in the province. He notes the migration patterns of the 40,000 Afsharis and the presence of Persian villagers far outnumbering the Turkmen. When he wrote his piece he said the Afshari were rapidly losing their sense of tribe, most were bi-lingual. He noted that design overlap between village and nomad had occurred to the point that the two were virtually indistinguishable.

He did claim the Afshar, “being good Turkmen,” used symmetric knots and the village weavings used asymmetric knots But he also noted that “by and large, the Afshari rug (like most of the tribal weaves of Persia) is a single-wefted fabric…” In these structural comments, knots and wefts, he is mistaken, as he was about the Baluch rugs. Why he got these particular specifics wrong when he obviously was so familiar with the general topic is not explainable.

He notes the many of the Afshar designs are original and striking, and when his book was written, he says “…thus the dyes in the Afshari rugs are excellent. The plague of aniline or synthetic dyes has not yet penetrated the area [about 1950].”

When he wrote, he notes that as in Baluch rugs, the design of an Afshari is no longer a sure indication as to the tribe or village which produced it. Yet he felt comfortable adding the sub-categories to the illustrations.

Regards, Jack Williams

Sue, I think i understand. I might try graphing a couple of rugs.

quote:

---

Sue, I think i understand. I might try graphing a couple of rugs.

---

Hi Sue,

To pursue your ideas further, it would be really helpful if you could illustrate these matthematical concepts with some rugs that have been analyzed.

At least it would be helpful for me.

Cheers,

James.

Hi Jack,

All right, I apologize for being so late on it, but I was distracted by the knots matter and I had a look at Peter F. Stone’s “Tribal & Village Rugs –The Definitive Guide etc.” ONLY NOW.



Scan from Gans-Ruedin (sorry, I don’t have the other two other “Karabagh” sources mentioned by Stone: Hali no.76 and Kerimov’s book):



But I have Opie’s “Tribal rugs” and this is the scan of page 222 mentioned by Stone. A truly Afshar rug, probably quoted for comparison:



So, eventually we have here one Karabagh rug that could have been woven by Afshars. (B.t.w., book says it’s around 1930, Turkis knots.)

Comparing Gans-Ruedin’s with Opie’s, I officially have to admit that the possibility exists…

Reluctantly,

Filiberto

BUT...

If this motif derives from urban Kerman models, how we explain its presence in Karabagh? Wasn’t the Afshar migration from Caucasus to East?

Unless:

- Somebody (which could or could not be of Afshar origin) in Karabagh simply copied an Afshar rug

OR

- The motif doesn’t derive from Kerman models.

Jack,

I think those sub-entries in Edwards for the Afshari refer to villages. I'm familiar with Dashtab, Bilvardi, Deh Shotoran. I remember seeing a few newish rugs in Iran in the '60's that were of very excellent quality that the dealer described, with a large smile, as "Bilvardeh," pronouncing it as though it were French, with the acute accent on the "e" at the end.

__________________
Rich Larkin

quote:

---

Originally posted by James Blanchard
Hi Sue,

To pursue your ideas further, it would be really helpful if you could illustrate these matthematical concepts with some rugs that have been analyzed.

At least it would be helpful for me.

Cheers,

James.

---

Hi all


"... or the motif doesn’t derive from Kerman models..."

This, Filiberto, is the perspective I would take. Design ideas in the last image rug are a few hundred years old and were probably taken down to Kerman by Afshars on their enforced migration.

Their original homelands in Azerbaidjan were not far from the Karabagh; in the middle-ages and after both were part of the same geo-political and cultural region.

Horst

Golden Mean

Hi all,

Sue commented below:

"When you do this, first off, you will be able to see that motifs "grow" from the center outward in golden mean proportions in rugs where the system was fully understood by it's designer. Where the system was understood it was used to it's capacity on every measurable aspect of a rug."

I won't go into the mathmatics of Sue's comment...but would like to touch on the possible relevance of philosophy embedded in the comment. Shi'a Islam (and the Sufi's) were profoundly influenced by Greek Philosophy. There was a feeling that God's essence could be determined by pure rational analysis...going back to Plato's construction resulting in his concept of "the unmoving mover." (The Sunni's were too...until the reaction about the 10th century which ended the "golden age" of Islamic scientific thought). The "Golden Mean" probably didn't mean much to an itinerate and illiterate tribal weaver. But Plato, Pathagoras, Archimedes, and the other great Greek philosophers were not only translated into Arabic, Aramic, and Persian but had to be read by any Shi'a Ayatollah who could possibly call himself educated. and maybe there is something in design porportions which just sort of fits the human eye?...and I'm not going to delve into that metaphysical area..Sufi's I can handle...new age???...that's another matter.

A salon on the influence of differences in carpet design growing out of Shi'a and Sunni interpretations of Islam..(and the role of philosophy in these differences) might be interesting. I notice that this was regularly commented on by British historians in the 19th century (among others see "A History of Persia" by Sir Percy Sykes, McMillian and Co. 1915, v.II, p. 203.)

Gene

ahh...progress

Filiberto,

My thanks for the enlightening quote from Stone. He. Tanavoli, Opie and Eiland are pretty much the people who have done what research has been published on the Afshar..and Tom Cole of course. But I do not have their reference books.

If you get a chance, I would enjoy seeing a scan of the "P1 to P4" medallions, oldest-youngest, he mentioned.

Reference the "Persian vase design," I agree with Horst, that ornamental device is so deeply Afshar that it could well have been a tribal totem of sorts internalized long before the diasporas from Azerbaijan. It appears in rugs that are presumed from Khurasan (I have one more "Khurrason-Afshar" rug that I hope is at least semi-definintive) and from Kerman.

This continuity in design is pure phylogenesis covering a population split several hundred years ago. And thanks to Filiberto, we have possible indication of the same type of design existing in vestigial form in Azerbaijan. It also appears in those Armenian carpets I previously posted...which is a connection I quite want to be able to make...to explain the cruciforms.

Richard...I suspect you are right. Edwards made a point to note that designs were no longer identifiable to localities or sub groups when he wrote his book, and he picked mostly newish, 5-10 year old carpets to illustrate the Afshar gendre. However, he took the time to sub-attribute them in the pictures...I guess to illustrate where things USED to be attributed and to cover the range of designs.

Something Steve posted early sticks in my mind. Steve noted seeing Afshar-looking rugs attributed to Kurdish weavers, or included in Kurdish collections. The term "Afshar-Kurd" was used. There is a Azerbaijan Kurd-Afshar historical connection. I'll post it later...but it was not particularly friendly at the time. But…”Afshar-Kurd” weavings appearing on the market today in some form? Could this be evidence of NW Persia-Anatolia Afshars, never mind the Kurd?

Regards, Jack Williams

re: Sues theory...I haven't bothered to do the math yet. But, here is what Edwards, speaking about medallion rugs, says about proportions, p. 41:

"...There are no prescribed proportions for the usual type...Nevertheless, the Persians possess certain rules for it [medallion rugs] which they like to apply whenever possible; because they know that these prescriptions, if followed, will produce a well proportioned carpet...There are three rules, viz.:

(1) The length of the torunj or oval part of the medallion (i.e. minus its two heads and necks) should equal one-third of the length of the whole carpet.

(2) The width of the border should equal one-sixth of the width of the carpet.

(3) The sum of the widths of the guards (i.e. small borders) should equal the width of the middle or large border.

Hey Jack,

I've googled some of those terms Edwards applied to Afshari rugs, and I'm not so confident they refer to villages. There is a Dashtab, but it may not be very close to the Kerman area, perhaps farther North. There is a Bilvardi to the West of Heriz, quite a distance from the Kerman area. The term "Kutlu" seems to be a Turkish surname.

I doubt the rugs I referred to as having seen in Iran, called "Bilvardeh" by the dealers, were Heriz area rugs. I remember them as having been consistent with very good Afshars. Very strong color, densely woven, refined weave with fully depressed warps. They were robust, not delicate in character, somewhat reminiscent of a fine Bidjar. But I can't say where they came from.

The obvious possibility as regards the Edwards labels, if not villages, would seem to be sub-tribes or extended families. I note that Edwards speaks of both nomadic and village production among the Afshars, and that there was increasing blurring of the distinction by the middle of the 20th century.

__________________
Rich Larkin

Add the Baktiaris to the Stew of Khorrasan

Hi all,

Oh, I forgot...since the Baktiari are mentioned by Jack above... Among the groups transported to Khorassan (to fight the Turkoman and Uzbeks) ...which famously include Kurds and Afshars transported by Shah Abbas in the late 1500's, early 1600's. are a large number of Baktiaris transported by the "Afshar" Nadir Shah in the 1730's (who also tranported Baluch into the area).

Sykes, in "History of Persia", v.II, P. 257, "Conquests of Nadir Shah," refering to Nadir's first expedition against the Baktiaris:

"On that occasion (ghw comment: Nadir Shah's first punitive expedition against the Baktiaris), the savage Bakhtiaris, unable to resist the overwhelming forces employed had submitted, and by way of punishment three thousand families had been transported to Khorasan. ..."

Gene

Hi Jack,

There you go: Stone’s other medallions.



But, again, Stone's conclusion is contradictory. If this design was learnt by Afshars after they were moved to Kerman, the presence of the motif in Caucasus could only have happened afterwards and there is nothing indicating that the Caucasian versions were made by surviving “Caucasian Afshars”.

Opie’s comment on the matter, including the scan from his book:
The pieces shown below and on the right (not scanned, sorry) represent an important category of Afshar weavings: those that copy urban patterns, particularly from nearby city of Kerman. It is apparent that Kerman vase designs took hold in the Afshar district and gradually became tribalized. The piece shown below is so urban in appearance that the name "Afshar" can be applied only with qualifications. It was probably made in a workshop.




Opie seems pretty much convinced of the urban origin of this motif and, I understand , he’s not the only one… So, we are back to square one unless we can demonstrate that the current wisdom is wrong, this design is part of the Afshar’s tradition and it was imported by them in Kerman, NOT learnt there.

About proportions… Opie writes, on page 215 of “Tribal Rugs”: Another helpful identifying feature relates to size. Formats of approximately 4 by 5 feet were used so frequently that one can correctly guess “Afshar” simply by seeing these familiar proportions.

Now, 5 : 4 = 1.25 – while the Golden mean is approximately 1.6180339887.
So much for the Geometrical Theory…

BTW, unless Sue can demonstrate that there is a typical Afshar’s geometrical layout (apart the very simple 5:4), don’t bother with it.

Perpetually skeptical,

Filiberto

Folks:

Opie's example looks like a very Afshari version of the vase and flowers incorporated in an urban-workshop style carpet.

__________________
Rich Larkin

Hi all

"The piece shown below is so urban in appearance that the name "Afshar" can be applied only with qualifications. It was probably made in a workshop."

I would subscribe to the first half-sentence of this statement without hesitation, Filiberto, also to the workshop origin of the rug.

But "Opie seems pretty much convinced of the urban origin of this m o t i f ..." is proposing something quite different, i.e. that the motiv is an artistic invention and not embedded in history and folk-art, which I think is unreasonable.

Gene, what you were saying a few days ago I find very interesting:

... "Shi'a Islam (and the Sufi's) were profoundly influenced by Greek Philosophy. There was a feeling that God's essence could be determined by pure rational analysis...going back to Plato's construction resulting in his concept of "the unmoving mover." (The Sunni's were too...until the reaction about the 10th century which ended the "golden age" of Islamic scientific thought). The "Golden Mean" probably didn't mean much to an itinerate and illiterate tribal weaver. But Plato, Pathagoras, Archimedes, and the other great Greek philosophers were not only translated into Arabic, Aramic, and Persian but had to be read by any Shi'a Ayatollah who could possibly call himself educated ...."

In which context would this transfer of knowledge have taken place, who did the translations, do your sources say anything about it?

Regards,

Horst

Hi Filiberto,

Ancient geometry can be learned visually in a hands on way. That is the only reason I get it. I cannot translate it into modern math procedures because I don't get modern math.
I think you are misunderstanding me in the same way my modern math oriented brother did when he told me, via a phone call, that anything I wanted to know in regards to this avenue of my pursuit required nothing more than a calculator. That this is not the case has to do, probably in part, with it being a differently based more visually oriented system, and also points to what Gene brings up. I would like to address Gene's points once I, if I, figure out how to.
Please don't throw out the system just because I can't figure out how to convey it in words. I did not make it up I just use it. I would like other's to be able to, too, but it will probably have to be conveyed by someone other than me for that to happen.
In regard to the Afshar rugs in this thread, (and those linked), this old geometry system conforms with and confirms Opie's assessment of urban origin. The geometry concurs with many other factors about these rugs which, when added up, point to the Afshar having been reduced to weaving employees for at least as far back as any of these rugs were woven. Actually, though, the geometry alone is pretty reliable and provides a good shortcut. It's worth learning the old way, which is actually fun and interesting. The modern math way, using a calculator, would be a labyrinthine logistical nightmare. Sue

Books recommendation

Horst,

There are hundreds of books on Islamic thought. I'll recommend three which touch on the subject of Greek philosophical influences on Islam:

"An Introduction to Shi'i Islam, the History and Doctrines of Twelver Islam" by Moojan Momen, Yale University Press, 1985. This is quite simply the best overall exposition of Shi'i Islam and its off shoots that I've ever found, presented in a very rational and understandable way. No religious evangilism...just straight forward analysis...Twelver mainstream, "Ghulat" sects some of whom bordered on Zoroastrian, Ismaili-Assassin, Druze, Alawite, Bahai...

"A Short Introduction to Islamic Philosophy, Theology and Mysticism," by Majid Fakhrky, Oneworld Publications, Oxford, 1997. The book goes quite deeply into philosophy and theology. It assumes in some case that you already know Platonic and Pythagorean concepts. But its worth the trouble.

"The Mystics of Islam, by Reynold A. Nicholson, Penguin Books...first published in 1914. This small volume deals mostly with Sufis...including their connection to Christianity and Greek philosophy. If you go to Pakistan, India or Afghanistan, you're quite likely to run across Sufis...the most important influence on Islam in South Asia. Its a pretty easy read and well worthwhile... It discusses Christian Monastic influence on the Sufis...Influence of Greek philosophy, Gnostics, etc.

Here is a short passage from the introduction of "Islamic philosophy" above.

"It was at Alexandria however..that Greek philosophy was to undergo its most radical transformation. From a purely indigenous product of the Greek genius, it now became thoroughly cosmopolitan, with profound religious and mystical leanings almost unknown to the classical Greeks. Thus, the names we associate with Alexandrian or Hellenistic philosophy are those of Plotinus (d. 270), Porphyry of Tyre (d. 303) and Jamblichus (d. 330), who formulated a new brand of philosophy desgnated as Neoplatonism, in which all the major currents of classical Greek philosophy, Platonism, Aristotelianism, Pythagoreanism and Stoicism were brought together in an imposing synthesis.

"When Egypt was conquered by the Arabs in 641, Alexandria was still flourishing as a centre of Greek philosophy, medicine and science, as well as a Hellenized form of Christian theology which had a decisive impact on Muslim philosophy and theology..."

Gene

PS. By the way I mentioned the influence of Greek philosophy on Shi'a and Sufi. It also profoundly influence the Sunnis...check out the Qadarites...run it on the web..and the furious anti-phylosophy counter movement which destroyed it and a great deal of scientific inquiry in the Sunni world.

And a short passage from "the Mystics of Islam":

"...the conquest of Persia, Syria and Egypt..brought the Moslems into contact with ideas which profoundly modified their oiutlook on life and religion. European readers of the Koran cannot fail to be struck by its author's vacillation and inconsistency in dealing with the greatest problems. He himself was not aware of these contradictions, nor were they a stumbling block to his devout followers, whose simple faith accepted the Koran as the Word of God. But the rift was there, and soon produced far-reaching results.

"Hence arose the Mujarites, who set faith above works and emphasised the divine love and goodness; the Qadirites who affirmed, and the Jabarites who denied, that men are responsible for their actions; the Mu'tazilites who built a theology on the basis of reason, rejecting the qualities of Allah as incompatibile with His unity, and predestinarianism as contrary to His justice; and finally the Ash'arites, the scholastic theologians of Islam, who formulated the rigid metaphysical and doctrinal system that underlies the creed of Orthodox Muslims at the present time. All these speculations, influenced as gthey were by Greek theology and philosophy, reacted powerfully upon Sufism....'

Gene, Horst:
Great! And what all of this has to do with Afshar rugs?

Sue:
Your “theories” once again are inexplicable and incommunicable. I still remember your “bagfaces are obviously calendars” one, and how you disappeared for several weeks when pressed for an explanation.

Ladies and Gentlemen:
When you find some real facts, like, say, an Afshar rug pre-dating the Kerman move, whistle to me.

Filiberto

Hi Gene,

some lazy consumer has posted a rather cheeky comment. He expects us to present our knowledge to him like waiters in a restaurant would lay out his meal for him; and he wants it announced by whistling. Sounds pretty low .

Thanks for those elements to the big puzzle, perhaps stepping stones. Yes, Alexandria seems to be one of the places where the music played a long time ago. I imagine, if someone would want to embark on identifying Afshar rugs predating the Kerman move, he might as well start there - but it could be a long journey.

I won't have internet access for the next couple of days.

Best wishes,

Horst

Hi Horst,

Customers of restaurants are the ones that might whistle to the waiters, not the other way around, so what I wrote before meant that I was putting myself in a waiter position, respectfully waiting for your orders.

I won’t go to Alexandria in search of Afshar rugs, though... I suspect that your tip will not be that good.

Perhaps I’m going to re-read some Stoic texts: one needs a lot of stoicism with this kind of underpaid job.

Filiberto

Filiberto,

I am working on it and may be able to let you know before you have gone deaf and I can't whistle anymore - hopefully.

Bye for now,

Horst

Whistliing

Hi Filiberto,

Can one whistle with tongue in cheek?

Anyway, per above the Afshars are Turkish origin, Shi'a and originally from the Azerbaijan area. They were originally one of the 7 Kizilbash tribes which put the Safavids in power in Persia about 1500. The Safavids were originally were a Sufi sect as were all the Kizilbash, though they rapidly morphed into twelver Shi'a once in power.

So the question arose, How did being Sufi effect their rug designs..if at all? Might crosses in the rugs somehow be related to this?

Gene

warp X weft

Hi Gene,

Gantzhorn has published a book with a wonderful collection of colour plates of carpets and rugs from hither and yon. It was originally called the "Christian Oriental Carpet", though I think later editions are called simply "The Oriental Carpet". In any case, his thesis is that Christian Armenians have influenced carpet design across most weaving groups, and this influence can be seen in the ubiquity of "cross" designs. It is not only Afshars. If you look at his examples, there are a number from South Persian groups (other than Afshar), and it would seem that no group was more prolific at weaving "cross" designs into rugs than the Turkmen tribes. So I am not sure how much one can infer from observing "cross" designs in Afshar rugs, since there is not much specificity in that.

James.

Hi Gene,

Can one whistle with tongue in cheek? One needs a whistle for that.

What is worrying me is that we are at page 5 of this thread.
As I see that you, Jack and Horst are willing to write more, may I suggest opening separate threads? One could be “influence of philosophy on tribal weavings”.

Perhaps I’ll open one on the “Urban origin of the central medallion motif”. Mmmh! Why not?

Regards,

Filiberto

Afshar design and diaspora

Hi Filiberto,

Some of the questions Jack raised in my mind at least are still outstanding. i.e.
-- Are there Afshar tribesmen still living in Western Anatolia, Azerbaijan area who still weave carpets who are not part of the Shahsavan confederacy?
-- If so do they weave a distinctive design?
-- If so does this design conform with our idea of Afshars from S.Iran or is it different?
-- i.e do Azerbaijan area Afshars now weave "Shahsavans" or some other identified weaving from that area or is it possible that Azerbaijan area Afshars still exist and still weave "traditional" Afshar carpets which are systematically identified as S.Persian Afshars?

I have two Afshars attributed by JA years ago...both of which I believe are S. Persian. Yet, I remain interested in the above questions for reasons of history and ethnograpy in addition to design and weave type. Having spent time in Khorrasan and intending to go back there, I'm also interested in the possibly separate question of Afshars in N.Khorrasan area and what they weave. I still think Turkotek can help on this topic..it hasn't been exhausted yet. If there is a page limit, though, perhaps we could open Volume II? ''

Gene

Hi Gene

I don't think Filiberto was suggesting a length limit on threads. Very long threads often get that way by taking off in a number of directions (as this one has done). The problem this causes is that it makes it difficult to follow the many lines that coexist within such threads, a problem that is alleviated by creating separate threads for the major topics that arose, and moving individual posts into the threads for which they are most appropriate.

The subjects you raise are interesting and relevant.

Regards

Steve Price

Summary to follow

Steve;

It looks like we are not making any further progress in defining Afshar carpets, or identifying the region of provenence, either Azerbaijan, Kerman, or Khurrasan.

But some very interesting lines of inquiry have been developed, and some good facts about diverse but related subjects have been posted. Some of the best is the history of the Shia Quizilbash and related confederations...knotting in the Caucasus, even the definition and history of the "golden mean".

I have a good summary I'm preparing, ala how a Salon would be done. Perhaps this could have been a salon with some more careful thought and organization. I'll post the summary this weekend when I have a chance to concentrate. Thanks to all...

Jack Williams

Hi Jack

I agree with all of that. A summary would be very useful, and after you post it, I'll close the thread and, after a week or so, archive it.

Thanks

Steve Price

Hey folks,

I agree too. The questions distilled by Gene are very interesting and they, as well as some others, beg for some answers. A few of them I have asked myself for years, such as did the Afshars from Azerbaijan have a discernible and distinctive line of woven goods. I didn't think this lengthy thread advanced our knowledge very much, however. I agree with Filiberto that a few more facts would help a lot. It got wild there at the end. I don't doubt that it is possible to attack the study of rugs through the Alexandrian philosophers, but the method has its limits.

"Afshar rugs" in my experience always seemed to fall into three principal categories as recognized in the marketplace: cousins to South Persian tribal rugs, especially Khamseh types, like the Danny Mehra piece; village or workshop products reflecting crudely the urban Kerman production; and some types apparently unique to the Afshari. They made up a broad rubric. In light of this view of the matter, the Tom Cole article on "outback Afshars" was especially fascinating. The Azerbaijan angle looked like a wild card situation. I had little cognizance of the Khorrassan area Afshars.

It would be very interesting to see how much we can explicate these questions with hard information. Certainly, there are enough vaguely tribal rugs generally attributed to "Northwest Persia" from which it might be possible to assign something to the Afshars up there.

BTW, Jack, I think your brother, Gene's rug looks very Afshari, but not that Doro