Yet another Ensi - ID help needed

[Joe Lawrence]

I went back and edited my old responses. As mentioned, it’s open left.

[Phil Smythe]

Ok guys. Please accept my apologies. Not sure how or why I read it the way I did but it is 100% OPEN LEFT.

Well Joe, which is it, twice you have said right, once left. So left, definitely?

And Steve, I'll see if I can get a couple of comparison photos to show the 'method' I and some others have used to tell the two types of asymmetric knots apart as it is not, or I don't have, the words, to easily explain it. It is to do, obviously, with the 'shape' of the knot on the back of the carpet and it does not matter which way the carpet is orientated.

However, if as Joe says now that his is left, than its 'reliability' just dropped from 99% to 98%.

[Joe Lawrence]

Ok guys. Please accept my apologies. Not sure how or why I read it the way I did but it is 100% OPEN LEFT.

[Chuck Wagner]

Hi,

Well, I did say "looks like" and not "definitely is". I was looking at the pile at the end of the rug in the last image, and the backs of the knots in the second-last image. I didn;t notice that the last image is actually the top of the rug and is upside down. Steve is correct about being able to know top from bottom. When the warps are not severely depressed you can tell open direction because one side rides higher than the other and tilts the knot. When the warps are depressed all bets are off.

Regards
Chuck

[Steve Price]

Hi Phil

I suspect that it is possible to distinguish AS-L from As-R from a photo of the back, but it can't possibly do so unless the end woven first is known. It must be possible to do this from a photo of the back, too. The reason As-L can't be distinguished from As-R without that information is that they are designated by convention as open to the right or to the left as seen from the weaver's position.

I'd be interested in knowing how your friend does it. Not that I doubt his claim, but because I'd like to be able to do it myself.

Best

Steve Price

[Phil Smythe]

Back on topic, the rug is Asymmetric open right.

Yes you had already said asymmetric right above Joe. And I didn't think I had strayed too far off-topic. Just replied to Steve that it seems it is possible to tell what kind of asymmetric knot it is from the back of a carpet without needing to know which way is down as it were (i.e. where the weaver started).

[Joe Lawrence]

Back on topic, the rug is Asymmetric open left.

[Steve Price]

Hi Phil

The only way I know how to distinguish knot types is from the pile side. That doesn't mean there is no way, just that I don't know about them or how to use them. I am baffled by the notion that there is any method that's independent of knowing which end was woven first, so I assume that your friend has a way of determining that from a photo of the back. In the words of Hamlet, There are more things on heaven and earth than are dreamed of by your philosophy. "You" in this case means "me".

Steve Price

[Phil Smythe]

I don't know any way to distinguish open right from open left without knowing which end was woven first. You can find that out by running the back of your hand along the direction of the warps. It will encounter less resistance in one direction. That direction is the one going towards the end woven first.
Steve Price

With no disrespect meant Steve, as I bow to your knowledge , I must beg to differ, somewhat anyway.

That is, while what you say seems certainly to be true almost all of the time with regards differentiating a symmetric knot from an asymmetric knot, it appears it is possible to do so with regards differentiating an asymmetric knot left from an asymmetric knot right via the back of a carpet.

For instance, I have an 'acquaintance', a dealer I have bought from in past, that has done a ‘survey’ over the years with regards 100’s and 100’s of close up photos he has had taken of the back of carpets that have passed through his hands, and differentiating an open right from an open left and vice versa was, he found, possible 99% of the time using his method. (And was why - from Joe's back side photo - I felt comfortable with 'opposing' Chucks speculation as to what way the knot was open in Joe’s. )

Even in the book Turkoman by James Cohen, in which there are 30 carpets that he shows close up photos of the back and describes the knot type, only one there does not seem to conform to the above method for differentiating, and that one may simply be incorrectly described (i.e. typo’d) as it were. But let me state again, it is only 'works' for asymmetric left or right differentiation, not for asymmetric knot / symmetric knot differentiation.

Anyway, certainly not meaning to be argumentative, just voicing an 'opinion' that seems to be backed by real-world experience.

[Joe Lawrence]

Thanks for all the responses. It’s open left.

[Steve Price]

First, lovely carpet Joe!

Now re Chuck's observation above re 'open left' knots. No disrespect meant to someone as knowledgeable as Chuck - and while I have no knowledge basis for any input as to whether Tekke or Ersari - from what I am seeing they appear open right to me. So, seeing as I would like to further my education, which is it Joe?

I don't know any way to distinguish open right from open left without knowing which end was woven first. You can find that out by running the back of your hand along the direction of the warps. It will encounter less resistance in one direction. That direction is the one going towards the end woven first.

Steve Price

[Phil Smythe]

Joe,It's not easy to tell, but it looks to me like the knots are open-left, the opposite of a typical Tekke knot. And, the weave seems rather loose. Coupled with characteristics mentioned previously, I'd say this one falls dead center in the enormous catch-all Ersari bin.
Regards
Chuck

First, lovely carpet Joe!

Now re Chuck's observation above re 'open left' knots. No disrespect meant to someone as knowledgeable as Chuck - and while I have no knowledge basis for any input as to whether Tekke or Ersari - from what I am seeing they appear open right to me. So, seeing as I would like to further my education, which is it Joe?

[Chuck Wagner]

Joe,

It's not easy to tell, but it looks to me like the knots are open-left, the opposite of a typical Tekke knot. And, the weave seems rather loose. Coupled with characteristics mentioned previously, I'd say this one falls dead center in the enormous catch-all Ersari bin.

Regards
Chuck

[Joe Lawrence]

It’s quiet here so I thought I’d revisit this. When I bought this, someone had secured the selvages with a machine. I removed them to find black course goat hair that was about 50% intact. I removed the goat hair and replaced it with the 100% brown wool that was made with natural dye…so they said. At least the price tag suggested it. I have also fixed and secured the fringes with the traditional double knot. The size is 103 x 150cm.
I ran this by a very well known author on rugs and they couldn’t say for sure what is was. I am assuming that it was expensive back in the day as most pieces were. The previous owner who passed away in 1997 was well known and very wealthy. I bought it from his assistant that had it in storage for nearly 30 years.

I cannot find any similar example anywhere. Any further thoughts on this would be appreciated.

[James Blanchard]

Interesting rug. I agree with others that I highly doubt it was woven by Tekke weavers. Beyond the design and palette, the presence of dark coloured warps strikes me as being very unusual for Tekke weaving.

My guess would be Ersari, or perhaps Uzbek weavers.

James