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Virtual Show and Tell Just what the title says it is.

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Old December 1st, 2017, 06:09 PM   #1
Gerry Gorman
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Default Small Shirvan rug

Hi All,

A recent acquisition sold to me as a Shirvan. More information on age, design especially Zigzag centre panel would be welcome. Dimensions are just over 3 ft by 2 ft 7 inches. In pretty good condition, some small repairs (using garish pink wool) handles loosely.















Thanks for looking

Gerry
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Old December 1st, 2017, 08:42 PM   #2
egbert
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Default Virtual Show and Tell

Hi to all, could be an Afshar from Khorassan ,my first guess.Regards,Egbert .
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Old December 1st, 2017, 08:52 PM   #3
Egbert Vennema
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Default Virtual Show and Tell

Hi to all , my first guess,.. a versatile Afshar from Khorassan. ( Second ,maybe Veramin area .) Age, over a 50 years for sure. Best,Egbert..
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Old December 1st, 2017, 09:29 PM   #4
Joel Greifinger
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Default Khorasan Afshar

Quote:
a versatile Afshar from Khorassan
Hi Egbert,

I've only seen three pile rugs that were attributed to the Afshar of Khorasan, and all have salor-type güls in the field design. If, while we endeavor to identify Gerry's rug, you could post any other Khorasani Afshar pile rugs, I would much appreciate it.

As for Gerry's, perhaps Gendje as a starting point.

Joel Greifinger

Last edited by Joel Greifinger; December 1st, 2017 at 09:41 PM.
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 12:53 AM   #5
Egbert Vennema
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Default Virtual Show and Tell

Ok, skating slowly here on the very very very, thin ice of my perception ... backside weaving looks like ,Kurdish/Afshar,/..wool on the guard border ..Beluch /Khorassan ? Hence my Afshar / Khorassan guess.... best Egbert.
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 10:54 AM   #6
Filiberto Boncompagni
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I don’t know… It could be a Shirvan but I never saw this kind of layout in Caucasian pile rugs. It actually reminds me of layouts found on flat weaves… Hence Egbert’s Afshar attribution, I think.

Could it be from North-Western Persia, instead?

Gerry, what is the material of the purple knots visible in the first photo? Is that silk?

Regards,

Filiberto
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 11:04 AM   #7
Gerry Gorman
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Default Pink repairs

Thanks everyone for your comments.

Filiberto, I've had a look and the rug has a few of these small spot repairs using this pink/purple thread which from my untrained eye looks to be wool.

Gerry
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 02:57 PM   #8
Joel Greifinger
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Default Bag face?

Quote:
3 ft by 2 ft 7 inches
Could be a large bag face.

And Filiberto may be onto something. Perhaps Kurdish from NW Persia.

Joel

Last edited by Joel Greifinger; December 2nd, 2017 at 03:08 PM.
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 03:03 PM   #9
Filiberto Boncompagni
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With those selvedges?
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 03:14 PM   #10
Joel Greifinger
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Quote:
Could be a large bag face.
Quote:
With those selvedges?
Probably not.

You'd think that those zig-zagging stripes would be a distinctive clue...

Last edited by Joel Greifinger; December 2nd, 2017 at 05:30 PM.
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 08:00 PM   #11
Rich Larkin
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Hi Gerry,

It is a puzzler. I don't know the answer (yet!), but here are a few preliminary comments.
  • The only available basis to call it Shirvan that I can see is that somebody else did. I think that is very doubtful, on palette, if nothing else.
  • I think Gendje is also unlikely based on palette (including the evidently dark wefts). The loose handle and something about the close look at the back that suggests to me, soft and loose, would fit with the Gendje attribution, and selected Gendje's are apt to exhibit some unusual designs; but I don't buy it in this one, especially considering the relatively diminutive size.
  • Stripes like these appear in a number of rugs, often vertically. One such source is Baluch. I am not calling this one Baluch (yet ), but I have an example that does the stripes in a zig-zag format similar to this one. Perhaps, as Joel suggests, it would be useful to consider other stripers as comparisons.
  • The pink/magenta yarn that is used for repair, possibly by a sort of darning technique, looks extremely glossy for wool. Could it be silk?
  • In truth, the rug exemplifies features common in several different venues, but does not seem to hew to any one model in all respects.
Rich
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 08:53 PM   #12
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Default it is kashgai

Interesting rug, definitely NOT a Shirvan or Genje, or Caucasian.

I am surprised all you experts could not see it is a Kashgai.

Best regards,
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 09:46 PM   #13
Egbert Vennema
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Default Virtual Show and Tell

Hi to all, a same example you can find here https://rjohnhowe.wordpress.com/2009...xtiles-part-3/ Afshar of Veramin. Best Egbert.
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 09:58 PM   #14
Joel Greifinger
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Hi Egbert,








This one is from Tanavoli's book on Varamin:



Looks like it likely is a bag face.

Joel

Last edited by Joel Greifinger; December 2nd, 2017 at 10:05 PM.
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 11:06 PM   #15
Rich Larkin
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Hi Joel,

If I am reading your posted images right, the last one is attributed to Afhhars from the Kirman area in Tanavoli’s book on Veramin (which I have not seen). What do you make of that?

Rich
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 11:09 PM   #16
Steve Price
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Interesting rug, definitely NOT a Shirvan or Genje, or Caucasian.

I am surprised all you experts could not see it is a Kashgai.

Best regards,
Perhaps because it isn't a Qashgai?

Steve Price
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 11:26 PM   #17
Joel Greifinger
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Quote:
the last one is attributed to Afhhars from the Kirman area in Tanavoli’s book on Veramin. What do you make of that?
Hi Rich,

In the book, Tanavoli notes the places that various tribal groups in Varamin had emigrated from, in the case of the Afshar, Kerman.

Joel
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Old December 3rd, 2017, 06:13 AM   #18
Rich Larkin
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Thanks, Joel. I thought it would be something like that.
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Old December 3rd, 2017, 08:50 AM   #19
Filiberto Boncompagni
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Well, mystery solved, thanks Egbert.

Only think I don’t understand: the end finishes of the last image are the ones I would correctly expect to find in a bag face.
The selvedges on Jerry’s piece and the one from John’s blog are the ones I would expect in a carpet.
Unless, of course, they were added later to transform a large bag face into a small rug.

Regards,

Filiberto
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Old December 3rd, 2017, 09:11 AM   #20
Filiberto Boncompagni
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Uh, yes, I hadn't noticed the caption "Piled large bagface or sofreh"!!!
They must be sofreh(s).
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