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Virtual Show and Tell Just what the title says it is.

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Old June 16th, 2016, 10:41 PM   #21
David R E Hunt
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Hi David

No, both these chuval demonstrate this "piano key" motive on the lateral sides. It's just that they are stuffed as if pillows,
so the edges are bent out of camera view.Cameras can do strange things to objects within images,especially carpets, as I have come to learn : ).







I agree Rich, maybe it's my monitor, but the ground color of this chuval,seen at distance, sure does look tomato or some such lighter rich red.
I googled "cinnamon brown" and the results yielded a much darker color than on the ground of this chuval.

This said, cameras and light can do strange things to carpets, and in my experience their can be quite a discrepancy
between the apparent color when viewed at a distance VS viewed/photographed at close range.A lot of factors at play
yet I suspect light, with all it's attendant varieties, the primary culprit.

I have seen a fair number of, or at least what appear to be, these over sized bags and bag faces of some common affinity.

None especially old but I think there are a few around that date to the pre-synthetic age. All large and used as storage in a yurt,
pegged to a lattice and with this band of embroidery facing outward for obvious reasons.Or were they? There is record of these
large bags being used as storage for grain, not among the Ali Eli (who ever they are aside from Ersari?) but among Turkmen in general.

I have seen a few piled Tekke variants of such gigantic size, but few and far between.

This 12 triangle or such archetypal gul defines the format standard, in combination with the over sized chemche minor gul which stands
as a dimensional equal to the accompanying major gul. In short they are both the same size. The almond or badam border and the kochack
border seem to define the border repertoire of this group, and wheather or not the "dice" minor border should be deemed a requisite is anyones call.

Mine are both asymetric open left with a fair amount of warp depression, and I read many are of this construct.

I have seen some interesting examples of this class, and these two stuffed chuvals number among the most
beautiful objects I own, even with the minimal but glaring synthetic orange accents. The wool quality is very high, as with the pile.


Dave

Last edited by David R E Hunt; June 16th, 2016 at 11:17 PM.
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Old June 17th, 2016, 12:50 AM   #22
Chuck Wagner
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Dave,

Long time no chit-chat. Good to hear from you.

Gigantic indeed - note that the floor tiles in my image are 1 ft x 1 ft. The bag is 6 feet long and 3-1/4 feet deep. Strap it to a camel, toss the kids in, and you're on your way...
Regards
Chuck Wagner
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Old June 18th, 2016, 01:02 AM   #23
David R E Hunt
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Hi David

These two aren't the perfect match but there are many similarities.





In regards to the use of silk in your chuval,
I have come to suspect some may be nothing but substitution of materials, in this instance the upgrade from wool to silk.
Telling that it's introduction commences at what seems a pause in the weaving process?

What is the knot count of this bag face? What type of knot, and open left or right?
I suspect it might fall within the lower ranges of say Tekke or Kizil Ayak weaving...

Dave

Chuck: What Up?
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Old June 20th, 2016, 01:46 PM   #24
Rich Larkin
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Dave,

Quote:
I googled "cinnamon brown" and the results yielded a much darker color than on the ground of this chuval.
You are a brave man. I can barely tell cinammon brown when I'm at the spice rack...nevermind when I'm looking at rugs!

Rich
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Old June 21st, 2016, 10:36 AM   #25
David R E Hunt
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Hi Rich

I Googled "Pumpkin Brown" and came up with a range of colors, some of which seem fairly close... Maybe "Cinnamon Pumpkin"?

Dave
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Old June 21st, 2016, 08:06 PM   #26
David Katz
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Dave,

Call me a Luddite, but my reference for the cinnamon color is, well, real cinnamon. Its not a perfect match, but in the ballpark. The juval is a tad more reddish than what I found in our kitchen spice rack.

The knot count is in the range of 120 - 130 kpsi; see image below (thanks to Rich and Steve for offline verification that I was doing this correctly).



Regarding knot structure, that's a bit more complicated. I found two different kinds of knots at the bottom and top margins of the juval, respectively (these were simply the areas where it was easiest to unequivocally view the knots). Along the bottom I found symmetrical knots; two strands of pile emerging between paired warps, with a collar underneath. However, along the top margin of the juval, where it had been cut, one could see the knot structure in cross-section. The image below shows what clearly looks like an asymmetrical knot.



(BTW, kudos to Rich for his lucid explanation of knot identification in the recent Turkotek post, "Unusual Turkmen Rug").

David
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Old June 22nd, 2016, 02:47 AM   #27
David R E Hunt
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Hi David

No worries, was just funnin about the color. Between the selection of words we use to describe them, the type of light,
it's intensity, direction, distance and angle, to say nothing of the specs of the camera itself, color is a dicey subject.

To judge from the photos the nap is low on this bag face. Is it evenly worn or is there much damage to the pile?
I suspect these two bag faces to be the product of differing weaving groups. My chuval is in new condition and the
pile is high, so unless the pile has been worn away on your piece I would think it of another weave.
Ditto for the knot count, approx 100 VS 120-130. Colors differ as well, but there is considerable difference in age here.

It's not unusual to see the different types of knotting, especially symmetrical knots along edges in Turkmen weaving,
but the primary knot, the type in which the vast majority of the field is executed, is the type used to divine tribal provenance.
And knowing if the pile is open left or open right (my chuval has asymmetrical knots with considerable warp depression,
and open left, in example) might aid in pinning down the tribal origin of your weaving...

Dave
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Old June 22nd, 2016, 03:40 AM   #28
Chuck Wagner
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Hi all,

I was able to get hold of a copy of HALI that contains an article relevant to this discussion.

If you all already have it and this is old news, fine, then I will stop with the images below. Steve has agreed to let me post scans of the entire article, if you're interested.

The reference is: S. Peter Poullada, Kizil Ayak & Ali Eli Chuvals, Turkmen Weavings of the Middle Amu Darya, HALI 148, September-October 2006, pp. 66-73.

It's an interesting article, delving into structural and design details in an effort to discriminate between Kizil Ayak and Ali Eli work. I have included the text specific to Ali Eli materials, as well as larger images of the chuval mentioned therein.
















Regards
Chuck Wagner
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Old June 22nd, 2016, 03:50 AM   #29
David Katz
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Chuck,

Fantastic! I've been looking for that article, which is referenced quite a bit by other writers. I would love to see the whole thing if possible.

Thanks,

David
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Old June 22nd, 2016, 04:11 AM   #30
David Katz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David R E Hunt View Post

And knowing if the pile is open left or open right (my chuval has asymmetrical knots with considerable warp depression, and open left, in example) might aid in pinning down the tribal origin of your weaving...

Dave
Dave,

In my image of the asymmetrical knot in Frame #26, the pile is facing up, so this knot would be open to the left. Thus, with respect to at least this knot structure, the major and minor gul designs and the extensive use of silk, my juval shares several characteristics with those described in the article by Poullada that Chuck just posted. Of course, mine and yours are 16-gul, and the Poullada article makes no mention of the "piano keyboard" banding on the sides. In answer to your question, the pile on mine is uniformly low.

David
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Old June 22nd, 2016, 01:02 PM   #31
Steve Price
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Wagner View Post
Hi all,

I was able to get hold of a copy of HALI that contains an article relevant to this discussion.

If you all already have it and this is old news, fine, then I will stop with the images below. Steve has agreed to let me post scans of the entire article, if you're interested.
Hi Chuck

I'm sorry, I misunderstood the question. I thought you were asking if it would be OK to post all the images in the article, not images of the entire article. The "fair use doctrine" allows others to reproduce excerpts, and HALI has never objected to our doing that. But putting up an entire article is way beyond fair use. The article is their intellectual property, and I don't think it would be OK for us to publish it without the express permission of their editor.

My apologies for having been my addle-headed self when I replied to your inquiry.

Steve Price
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Old June 22nd, 2016, 10:36 PM   #32
David R E Hunt
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Hi Chuck

I remember when this article came out, have been wanting to read it for some time, but not yet.
Will have to track down a copy of HALI 148.
Thanks for the images, and the reminder.

Hi David

You had said that

"In my image of the asymmetrical knot in Frame #26, the pile is facing up, so this knot would be open to the left"

but it is my understanding that when a weaver places a section of pile yarn around the warp threads in the course
of the weaving process, the ends of the yarn are pulled back toward the weaver and hence down. If the pile ends
are directed up the weaving is inverted. This is common, carpets are woven upside down in relation to the
design with some frequency. When properly oriented in relation to the direction in which it was woven the pile of a
carpet should face downward. In short if the pile in your weaving is facing up (toward the viewer)the knots are
asymmetric open to the right and not to the left, but I could be misreading something...

Dave

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Old June 22nd, 2016, 11:51 PM   #33
Steve Wallace
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Hi all

At the risk of saying the obvious ... here goes .... if you currently subscribe to Hali, you can see all past issues digitally via the Exact Editions site. I can't provide a link as you need to be logged in to the site.

Thanks for the discussion
Steve
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Old June 23rd, 2016, 12:28 AM   #34
Chuck Wagner
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Hi Steve(s),

I'm not surprised that there may be some concern so I will restrict any further extracts from the article to images of the pieces and their captions. These are scans from a hard copy that I own.

I have some additional reference material found on the internet; I'll add that tomorrow. Interestingly, on my 20th century chuval, the knots are asymmetrical open right.

Regards
Chuck Wagner
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Old June 23rd, 2016, 01:10 AM   #35
Rich Larkin
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Dave,

As I look at the cut cross-section of David's piece, I think those knots are open left.

Rich
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Old June 23rd, 2016, 02:51 AM   #36
David Katz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David R E Hunt View Post
Hi Chuck

In short if the pile in your weaving is facing up (toward the viewer)the knots are asymmetric open to the right and not to the left, but I could be misreading something...

Dave,

Just to be clear, when I say the pile is "facing up," I mean facing towards the top of the image, not coming out of the plane of the image towards the viewer. The viewer is looking down on the cut ends of the warps in cross-section. Does that help?

David
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Old June 23rd, 2016, 04:19 AM   #37
Chuck Wagner
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David (Katz)

I think it's more definitive to fold the rug back, pile side out, along a horizontal row of knots and look at them closely, as in the following image:




Coming up from the bottom, the first row of ivory wool knots can be seen to have a tuft of wool (the pile) coming out of the right side of the knot node (the clusters of more horizontal fibers) and descending to the right. This is asymmetric open right.

Regards,
Chuck Wagner
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Old June 23rd, 2016, 02:07 PM   #38
David Katz
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Chuck,

Thank you for that helpful image; here is a similar view of the knots in my juval showing that they are asymmetric, open to the left.



Any further thoughts as to where you think this piece fits in relation to the Ali Eli juvals in the Poullada article, e.g., later (and larger) pieces of the same group, or something more distinct?

Best regards,

David
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Old June 24th, 2016, 01:55 AM   #39
David R E Hunt
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Hi Chuck

You wouldn't have any Kizil Ayak images from the Poullouda article you could post by any chance?

Hi David

I wanted to be sure so I went back and checked my definitions in regards to open left and open right assym knots
in Eiland's "Oriental Carpets A Complete Guide" and compared the listed diagrams and found, assuming the fabric
properly oriented, your rug to be assymetric open right. The "open" space is to the right of the emerging pile tufts.





My guess in regard to provenance is Kizil Ayak...


Dave
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Old June 24th, 2016, 03:14 AM   #40
Chuck Wagner
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Dave,

That's inconsistent with what I use as a guide, which is Marla's book. John Howe (haven't dueled with him in years...) has these online with Marla's permission:







Also, yes, I do have images of the Kizil Ayak examples; I'll post some tomorrow. I have a longer post coming tonight, already. It will have a small example of a couple of them

Regards
Chuck Wagner
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