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Virtual Show and Tell Just what the title says it is.

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Old July 12th, 2018, 11:21 PM   #41
Joy Richards
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Hi Joel,

Of the prayer rug? That's rather low, isn't it? I did also post another second rug which might be confusing and I'm wondering whether you looked at that one since it's a much coarser weave, and from the picture it does look like 9 x 9, whereas the prayer rug, to my eye, looks like around 18 down.

Joy
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Old July 13th, 2018, 04:40 AM   #42
Rich Larkin
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Hi Joy,

Joel is right on the nose with that count. 9 X 9 = 81 kpsi. That isn't bad for a Caucasian prayer rug. I don't know how you are getting your count, but here is the right take. Looking at your image with the two rulers, start at the point where they touch, corner to corner. From that red knot there (two nodes make one knot), move along the horizontal bottom edge of the one ruler to the left. The ninth knot at the "1" is a black one, and the ninth in that line. Note that you are proceeding along the direction of the warps on that line.

Coming down the side of the left edge of the other ruler (in the direction of the wefts), also starting up in the corner, you notice that there are three red nodes there. It means you are getting half of one red knot and the whole of another. It evens out, because when you reach the "1" down that ruler, it lies right in the middle of two black nodes, so half a knot there as well giving a total of nine. Then, just do the math!

I just checked a couple of Caucasian rugs I have. One gnarly old Derbent (Derbend) comes in at about 40 kpsi. A somewhat slick Shirvan-ish prayer rug counts just a hair under 100 kpsi. So, 81 is not too bad. The fact that the yarns are on the heavy side tends to reduce the actual count.

BTW, no need whatsoever to apologize for enthusiasm or for what you may consider simple questions. I know a number of rug enthusiasts who fear that hobby may waning in terms of general interest. It is encouraging to have enthusiastic interest on the part of a recent aflictee show up here. Especially when they bring interesting rugs with them.

Speaking of which, not much is more fun that busting into some old attic and coming out with a mystery rug. That interesting item could be mixed up with Caucasian rugs, though I would be looking towards a Kurdish provenance. It is one of several types of rugs that feature oversized versions of what look like devices derived from Turkoman guls. It is single-wefted. I have a few notions about it, but I will hold them for later.

Rich
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Old July 13th, 2018, 08:15 AM   #43
Filiberto Boncompagni
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Hi Joy,

Yes, the Kpsi of you rug is on the low side for an Eastern Caucasian but don’t worry: have a look at Kaffel’s book, section “Notes to the plates” starting at page 173.
A lot of the rugs have their structure analyzed. Not all unfortunately, but I don't complain: Kaffel made an exceptionally good work and I am sure he examined what it was possible.

So… Of the Eastern Caucasian Section, I counted 14 rugs under 100 Kpsi. Two Shirvan are at 81 Kpsi (#48 and #81) like yours.
Lower than yours: Perepedil #49 at 73 Kpsi, Perepedil #50 at 64 Kpsi, Shirvan #70 and #75 at 76 and 68 Kpsi respectively.
Your prayer rug is in good company, then.

I like the other rug, a nice reinterpretation of Turkmen motifs.
Rich is probably right, it could be Kurdish. Possibly from the Caucasus or North-West Persia, maybe?

Regards,
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Old July 13th, 2018, 01:16 PM   #44
Ken Shum
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I busted out my copy of Schurmann's book and from the damage Joy has described I deduce that the bullet was most likely fired from a small caliber handgun like a .22LR. or a .25ACP.

If she would upload a picture of the hole I might be able to provide a more certain answer.

Now back to rugs.

I have a Kuba/Shirvan Shahnazari that has a similar selvage construction and knot density as Joy's rug.
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Old July 13th, 2018, 01:54 PM   #45
Joy Richards
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First of all, my apologies to Joel. This proves what a neophyte I am. Now that I look again at the knots, it's clear as day, so thank you Rich. Slowly, slowly.

I'm relieved to know that the count is within the normal range and the thicker fibre maybe also confirms the small Karabagh connection since it's colder there than further east.

But yes, there does appear to be a waning of interest. Here in Toronto, as you probably all know, many of the oriental rug stores have closed their doors. I have yet to visit the Aga Khan Museum and saw that there was an excursion by members of the Hajji Baba Club fairly recently, who then went on to private residences for a showing of their personal collections. So there is an interest, but like all things, it will eventually wax again, maybe in our children's and grandchildren's times.

There is nothing more exciting than finding these treasures in unexpected places and I have a few that I would love to show but since they're not Caucasian, would have to start a new thread and I already feel I've monopolized enough of your time.

As for the bullet hole, Ken, Bulgarian husband has changed his mind and thinks it looks more like a sword thrust (spouse, irritated by partner's obsession with this subject?). I'm told that the book hailed from a dealer in LA. The plot thickens.

I am so grateful to all of you for making things easier to understand and so pleasant. Hunched over these heavy books is a pleasure, but you've all made it much more exciting, for me and, hopefully, for others like me.
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Old July 13th, 2018, 03:15 PM   #46
Rich Larkin
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Hi Joy,

Quote:
"...and I already feel I've monopolized enough of your time."
Uh uh. You are not getting off that easy.

We (i. e., 'I') need to see the other rugs. Start a new thread if you have to.

BTW, I am relieved your Bulgarian husband brought up the sword cut theory. Sword cuts have an honored place in rug lore, many thousands of them having been diagnosed in dealers' shops. On the other hand, I am unaware of any 'pistol-shot' pieces in major collections. I realize we are speaking of a book, but with any self-respecting ruggie, the books are never far away.

BTW2, Toronto seems to be the center of the rug world these days. Hear hear!!

Rich

Last edited by Rich Larkin; July 13th, 2018 at 03:31 PM.
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Old July 13th, 2018, 04:07 PM   #47
Ken Shum
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Joe,

I am not aware of any sword with a circular cross section, so maybe Pick of some kind instead?

If the end of the entry hole gradually comes to a point, then the damage was caused by a thrusting object (Sword, pick etc.) If it was more of a consistent diameter or even broader near the last few pages, then it would be a bullet.

Ken
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Old July 13th, 2018, 10:17 PM   #48
Joel Greifinger
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Quote:
Rich is probably right, it could be Kurdish. Possibly from the Caucasus or North-West Persia, maybe?
Hi all,

Based on the design and the single-wefted weave, my guess for the attic-rescue rug would be that it's from Taleghan in Alborz Province east of Qazvin in northern Iran. A Taleghan weaver might well have been Kurdish.

Taleghan rugs frequently feature Turkmen-derived motifs. And those boteh minor borders certainly put in a more than occasional appearance. Like the nearby area that produces rugs labelled as Hamadan, they are single-wefted. But, also like them, they typically are woven on cotton warps and the warps in Joy's attic rug appear to be wool, so one strike against.

Good rescue.


Joel
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Old July 14th, 2018, 03:35 AM   #49
Joy Richards
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Joel, Mr. Greifinger,

You just took my breath away. I've never heard the name Taleghan, Alborz Province, or Qazvin. (Not that I pretend to have heard every name, but this sounds like Middle Earth). I went and felt the attic rug and from a not great picture, you were able to surmise that it probably doesn't have cotton warps, and I think you're right It's got the same flappability as my larger Kurdish carpet which I know is wool on wool. So I punch in Taleghan, Alborz Province rug and up this comes.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=Taleg...kc71EPlVOBblM:

And it's my rug's uncle or its cousin once removed! There must be a thousand Taleghans in that rug weaving world, and to me, that's like finding a needle in a haystack. Thank you!

Conversely, last night Jimmy Kimmel showed an experiment done on the street somewhere in the U.S with a blank map of the world, asking passersby if they could name one country. The results were abysmal and shocking, until a young boy, clearly a future TurkoTeker, aged about 12, pointed his stick and named one country after the other, including Papua, New Guinea. There's hope.

So after all that, knowing that structure comes first, what exactly does it mean and why is it important that identity may not be spot-on because it doesn't have a cotton warp? Maybe they'd run out of cotton for a while in Taleghan?

Joy
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Old July 14th, 2018, 03:52 AM   #50
Joy Richards
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Ken,

I see that I must produce a picture of this mysterious hole in my book and I will do that tomorrow when the light will be helpful. Whatever or whoever did it, I've never seen anything like this. It may, boringly, turn out to be something rather mundane, and from your description of how it would look if it was a bullet, it wasn't. But whatever it was, it was very sharp and intentionally done.

My husband has just attacked a Bulgarian book he didn't like with the biggest knife we've got and said that, in time, the cut would start to resemble the poor Schurmann. Unless we ask the LA dealer what he knows of its provenance, it will be left to our rather vivid imaginations. But I'll send a pic tomorrow.

Joy
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Old July 14th, 2018, 03:57 AM   #51
Rich Larkin
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Hi Joy,

Good find on that Google search. And kudos to Joel for the Taleghan connection, a new one on me.

The rug you found, Joy, is on a cotton foundation (warps and wefts), but your attic find has wool warps and wefts; and probably hand processed, too. It looks like a rustic production to me. Can you supply the overall dimensions?

Rich
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Old July 14th, 2018, 03:58 AM   #52
Joy Richards
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Thank you Rich,

I will start another thread with just my serendipitous finds. I can recognize one or two of them, but with the collective knowledge of all of you, I'll know so much more.

Thankfully, our son will continue to cover the floors and the walls after we're gone, just because he likes the look of them and their familiarity.

Joy
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Old July 14th, 2018, 04:03 AM   #53
Joy Richards
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Rich,

The Taleghan is 5' x 3'3 exactly. And what does hand processed mean? And rustic production?

Joy
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Old July 14th, 2018, 04:30 AM   #54
Rich Larkin
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Hi Joy,

Quote:
And what does hand processed mean? And rustic production?
My guess is your attic rug represents local production from villagers or more rural people who had sheep and whose domestic economy included processing and weaving their own wool in traditional patterns and selling the end product. The obviously related rug[s] you came up with on Google would be a later version of that kind of production in a manner more connected to the commercial rug industry in northern Iran.

A lot of traditional village and tribal weaving in Iran and vicinity that once featured all-wool construction in a 'home industry' or 'cottage industry' setting moved to the use of cotton foundations for reasons of convenience and the vicissitudes of the market. For one thing, the rug trade encouraged cotton foundations because they were deemed to render a rug that would be more reliable in lying flat and holding the proper shape.

Rich
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Old July 14th, 2018, 04:45 AM   #55
Joy Richards
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That's very interesting Rich. And from what you say, mine may be quite old - for a rug. Since the one that Google found is apparently from around 1930 and looked in much better shape.

Joy
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Old July 14th, 2018, 04:05 PM   #56
Chuck Wagner
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Joel,

So, I guess that you have ruled out Quchan Kurd for this piece ?

The would have been my first guess, although the structure is a bit wobbly for that attribution.

Regards,
Chuck
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Old July 14th, 2018, 04:33 PM   #57
Rich Larkin
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Hi Joy,

I would think your attic rug is post-1900, and older than the one you found on Google (though the latter observation is not necessarily true, see below).

I attempted to suggest in my next previous post that village and cottage production of Persian rugs in, say, the first half of the twentieth century, and reaching back into the nineteenth as well, tended to undergo a process of homogenization in terms of the distinctive character of rugs from specific venues. Referring to rugs marketed as "Hamedan" (not including your attic rug, strictly speaking, though it is very similar in character to rugs from that group), which covers literally several hundreds of villages in the vicinity of Hamedan, items woven in the separate venues in, say, 1890, were much easier to distinguish one from the other, than rugs from the same venues, respectively, woven in 1940. To a substantial extent, this tendency resulted from various dynamics in the rug-weaving economy of the region by which elements of the process became standardized. One aspect was the substitution of cotton for wool in the foundation material, and often the cotton was procured and distributed by middlemen on a relatively wide basis, where the earlier practice had been for weavers to make their own decisions and arrangements for such details. Also, the dyeing of certain major colors was provided on a centralized basis (sometimes on the weavers' own wools, sometimes on 'pools' of collected wools), and other colors were done by the weavers themselves the "old-fashioned way." Etc.

Regarding your attic rug, I do not doubt Joel's attribution to Taleghan, or close by. And as I mentioned, I had not heard of the place before, so I have no specific knowledge of how those rugs would have gotten into the market. But it is a reasonable guess that the process was not very different from what occurred with the Hamedan rugs. The Taleghan rugs would have been aimed at the same (moderately priced) niche in the market. Getting to the comparison of your rug to the one you found on Google, it would seem the Google version is certainly a more modern version of the output, based on the comments above. The question lies, however, whether the 'shift' (wool foundations to cotton, etc.) happened uniformly across the production area. It is conceivable that there was a period during which the change was taking place gradually, and both wool foundation and cotton foundation rugs were being woven contemporaneously. So, as I suggested above, your rug appears, perhaps superficially, to be older than the other, but not necessarily so, and not necessarily a lot older.

I mention the point because the palette is distinctive in the two rugs and similar between them. If we were to hypothesize that the weavers of your attic rug were more independent of the pressures from the middlemen in the marketplace than the weavers of the other rug, that 'fact' might account for a lot of the observable difference between them.

BTW, here is another unsolicited piece of advice for a novice ruggie: Be skeptical of any statement of the age of any rug. The underlying reasons for the great majority of such statements are typically missing, but the implied (unwritten) reason is usually, "Trust me!" (Though I have no reason to think 1930 is especially inaccurate for the Google find.)

Rich
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Old July 14th, 2018, 04:39 PM   #58
Rich Larkin
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Hi Chuck,

Quchan was my first thought too, though I would not have expected this particular palette to fit my notion of the typical Quchan rug implementing oversized imitations of Turkoman guls gleaned from my past years of chasing rugs. That palette (as found in my head) was more like a slightly dulled Caucasian palette. However, I have learned (I think) recently [1] that the Quchan palette was more varied than I had thought, and [2], there were more venues producing the same Turkoman-esque oversized designs than I had previously understood. I just don't remember where those latter venues were.

Rich
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Old July 14th, 2018, 06:07 PM   #59
Joy Richards
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"Hi everyone, I was a completely normal person until a few months ago, when out of the blue I decided to buy a small carpet for my living room. Now I am obsessed. I've been lurking and reading all your posts for weeks and I am knocked-out by the knowledge / expertise floating around in these discussion boards."
Danielle Duperreault's first post on the bag face thread which I found this morning.

I see Danielle is also in Toronto, as is Dinie Gootjes, which probably explains Rich's comment to me about Toronto being some sort of 'rug centre'. I wish it were true, but I quote Danielle because the last pieces from you gentlemen, is what she's talking about. Such a wealth of knowledge to be found nowhere else and in response to our individual questions. Thank you again from the likes of us and sad to see, within Danielle's thread, that the Toronto Rug Society no longer exists.

Now to the Hamedan/Quchan/Kurd/Turkoman/slightly Caucasian mongrel, it will take me some time to take all of that information in, but I know it's also useful background for rugs from all over.

I said I would post pictures of the wounded Schurmann, so here they are.

The first view of it on the third page in:



Turn the page and the cut on both pages:



About 60 0r 70 pages in:



And this one to show the impression left by the pressure right at the end but note that it's upside down (my fault).



I think it's clear that a very sharp object must have been thrust with a lot of pressure, but I leave it to others to interpret what the shape around the cut was caused by.

Joy
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Old July 14th, 2018, 06:58 PM   #60
Rich Larkin
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Hi Joy,

Most ingeniously, I think you included the vital clue to the matter right in there with your images.

Quote:
Hi everyone, I was a completely normal person until a few months ago, when out of the blue I decided to buy a small carpet for my living room. Now I am obsessed.
I believe the spouse, who may not necessarily have been Bulgarian, back in the dim mists of time (but after 1964), got the same take from his/her spouse. This realization, of course, created instant panic. He/she was too civilized to apply the thumb screw directly to the afflicted mate, so, he/she applied it to the nearby edition of Schürmann, Caucasian Rugs. The Royal Canadian Mounties, under Sergeant Preston and his Great Dog, King, arrived in time to save the book, but it was nearly too late. At least, that's how it looks to me!

Rich
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