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Virtual Show and Tell Just what the title says it is.

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Old June 16th, 2018, 09:17 PM   #21
Steve Price
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Hi Danielle

I wish you luck in your quest, but you should know that eBay is followed closely by a lot of dealers and collectors, and while you can find some stuff selling for a lot less than most dealers would charge for it, decent pieces don't sell for $0.10 on the dollar. It's chock full of trash and frauds. Beware.

A great way to get educated is to attend previews of rug sales at major auction houses. The goods are usually of decent quality, you'll be able to see and handle many good weavings in one day, and the auction house experts, dealers and collectors are usually generous with their time. Another is to attend meetings of a local rug collector club if there is one nearby.

Regards

Steve Price
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Old June 16th, 2018, 10:33 PM   #22
Danielle Duperreault
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I was joking about finding a $10 Bakhshayesh, but I do appreciate your looking out for me. And you are completely right, I have witnessed some outrageous behaviour on eBay when it comes to individuals marketing their carpets. So far I have risked nothing (obviously). I follow 2 excellent sellers on eBay. I always get outbid. But I have a sense of humour about it.

I'll visit a carpet auction. It's a good idea. In terms of a local rug collectors club, I don't have a collection, or a unifying interest, but if there is such a club here, I guess I could sit in the back and just listen.
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Old June 16th, 2018, 11:34 PM   #23
Steve Price
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Hi Danielle

It appears that you are in the Toronto area. I haven't been there in a number of years, but they did have an active rug collector club and probably still do. There's also a textile museum in Toronto, which could be a good source of connections there.

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Old June 17th, 2018, 04:22 PM   #24
Rich Larkin
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Hi Danielle,

Yes, everybody is lining up to protect you from the jungle of the rug market. That is because most of the older rugs out there that are apt to engage the attention of hobbyists and collectors (because others are shoving them in their faces!) have something wrong with them.

Steve has given you good advice, and one of his suggestions I would emphasize is that you handle as many rugs as you can. There is no substitute for it. In my opinion, it is not possible to judge rugs adequately merely by seeing them on a screen if you are considering paying good money for them. The screen view has to be backed up by the experience of having seen similar rugs in person, so that the screen inspection becomes a refreshment of the memory of having seen other rugs of the type, and having established in mind a standard. Then, you can make a much finer judgment about how well the offered example meets the standard.

I trust the following will not be against the rules of this site, as I am speaking in generalities, but be wary of traveling rug sales that appear (and disappear) at hotels, motels, etc., and that masquerade as ‘clearance’ events. The advertising that goes with them typically implies that a valuable collection of rugs has to be liquidated on account of unexpected circumstances; but a careful reading can be translated to say, “The people who delivered these rugs to us told us to sell them at the best prices we can get.” (That is the plan for just about every marketing effort, is it not?) I am not sure these affairs are still being staged, but I used to see them regularly advertised in newspaper classified sections. My experience was that many of the rugs offered, virtually all new, were defective in some way: crooked, sloppily woven, oddly colored (in a bad way), etc. I guessed they contained many rugs that had been rejected by the quality control departments of importers, or something like that, and the traveling sales were the chosen method of dealing with them.

Regarding the two pieces you posted, I agree with Joel that the yastik has probably suffered both inferior dyes and harsh chemical bleaching or similar processing. If you were to prowl the landscape looking in rural antique shops and whatnot, looking for rugs, you would find similar examples: survivors of the time when such treatment was common in the countries of origin.

BTW, I don’t think the lack of “a collection” should deter you from joining any clubs that may be convenient for you and making yourself known. Most dedicated hobbyists and collectors are glad to encourage the interest of new enthusiasts. Anyway, I know for a fact there are some top notch (I'm talking people, not necessarily rugs) ruggies in Canada, and not far from Toronto.

Good luck hunting!

Rich
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Old June 17th, 2018, 04:53 PM   #25
Steve Price
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Hi Rich

Hotel sales are just traveling hustlers trying to unload the bottom of their inventory. Going out of business sales are nearly as bad. Typically, much of what's offered is inventory from the same hustlers who do the hotel sales. Both often have shills in the crowd to ooh! and aah! at third rate junk.

Rug clubs and reputable auction houses not only let you handle lots of rugs, they let you have conversations about them with people who know what they're looking at. You can handle 10,000 rugs, but if you have no mentors you're unlikely to learn much by doing it.

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Old June 17th, 2018, 07:09 PM   #26
Marvin Amstey
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Having been close to the inside of a 'going-out-of-business' auction, I can vouch for what Steve states. In this case the auction and sale were carried out by an anonymous (to the buyers) company, using the store's name for the sale. The company conducting the sale does that all over the country as its only form of business. Every rug from the company actually going out of business was marked up 10x exactly; the auction's starting price was a fraction of that number. In addition, the "auctioneers" brought more inventory from their warehouses.
The only point of this story is "CAVEAT EMPTOR". Steve's advise for help is spot on.
Marvin
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Old June 18th, 2018, 12:28 PM   #27
Danielle Duperreault
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I contacted the CTM. They are getting back to me on local rug clubs.

I have been registered at the two "reputable" Toronto auction houses for a few months now. I did not attend either rug auction previews, because LIFE. I will make it a point to carve out time to attend future rug auction previews. I didn't know there were hotel rug auctions. So thank-you all, I consider myself fully forewarned.

I promised Steve that this would be my last photo-post for weeks and weeks. I appreciate everyone's forbearance, you have all been great. This is another bag I've been trying to identify. The bagfaces are fragile-seeming. I've been reading over old Turkotek threads and I think I am close. My best guess: weftless soumak, kurdish / Kars area (as per Marla Mallett). I have no idea as to dating. I am also not clear on what "weftless" means, but I am working on it.

As always, I value everyone's input. All insights / suggestions / comments are welcome.







The detailed designs on the photo of reciprocal brocading below is a close colour, composition, and detail match to mine despite the different mediums. Photo from Turkotek 2001, posted by Michael Wendorf.



I have found 3 additional bags online that are very similar to mine in terms of medium (weftless soumak). All 3 share the same colour and design characteristics as the bag below. Mine do not. This image comes from Turkotek 2013, posted by Joel Greifinger.

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Old June 18th, 2018, 07:47 PM   #28
Joel Greifinger
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Quote:
I am also not clear on what "weftless" means, but I am working on it.
Hi Danielle,

In other types of soumak (a/k/a weft-wrapping), when the weaver is finished with each row of weft-wrapping, she inserts a ground weft that separates it from the next row. In weftless soumak, no ground wefts are interlaced between rows of wrapping. Because there are no ground wefts, weftless soumak has slits like the ones in slit tapestry weavings. It's a technique that is mainly associated with Kurdish weavers in eastern Anatolia.

Here is a weftless soumak eastern Anatolian heybe (bag) that is similar to yours:



Joel

Last edited by Joel Greifinger; June 19th, 2018 at 01:16 AM.
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Old June 19th, 2018, 12:01 AM   #29
Danielle Duperreault
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Hi Joel, thank-you, the bagfaces do have slits. The texture is very different from soumak. The heybey you posted is not showing-up on my screen, but the bag of yours I posted earlier is beautiful! I love the blue.
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Old June 19th, 2018, 01:17 AM   #30
Joel Greifinger
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Hi Danielle,

Does the picture of the heybe in my previous post show up for you now?

Joel
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Old June 19th, 2018, 01:48 AM   #31
Danielle Duperreault
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Yes, I can see the heybe now. Stunning! I'm currently knee deep in a 2008 thread on south Persian objects (accessories?) on here that also have similar design elements. I love how these same cultural / artistic tropes get reinterpreted through colour and medium by one genius woman after another.
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Old June 19th, 2018, 03:15 AM   #32
Dinie Gootjes
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Danielle, there used to be a Toronto Rug Society, but as far as I know it has been dead for many years. I talked to a few people who once were members, at a rug exhibition in Mississauga in 2010, see http://www.turkotek.com/salon_00131/salon.html. It seems they could not find people who were willing to do the organizational work, and so it disappeared. I am also in the wider Toronto area!
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Old June 19th, 2018, 04:42 PM   #33
Danielle Duperreault
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Hi Dinie, it is nice to hear from another Torontonian! Too bad the rug group you speak of has fallen apart. I spoke with someone at the CTM over the week-end and there is apparently a rug group that meets at the textile museum. It is a membership only group within the CTM (so you need two memberships). I am hoping to hear back from them, I will pass on the information to you. I enjoyed your article on Herat rugs. I don't think I've ever been that far West in this city. I'll have to visit one day.
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Old June 20th, 2018, 01:50 AM   #34
Dinie Gootjes
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I would love to hear about the rug group at the Textile Museum. Maybe some of the members of the old group went there.

Btw, Herat Carpets is now in Oakville, corner of Trafalgar and Cornwall. Farther from Toronto, closer to me (Hamilton).
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Old June 20th, 2018, 07:50 PM   #35
Danielle Duperreault
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The director of the CTM called. There is some major-sounding administrative reshuffling about to take place. The status of the rug group is up in the air. She advised contacting the museum in early September.
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Old June 20th, 2018, 08:23 PM   #36
Marvin Amstey
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I've been following your discussion about the Toronto rug group which brought back a pleasant memory: the Rochester (NY) Rug Society met in a joint session with the Toronto Rug Society sometime in the late 70's in Toronto. There was a program at the Textile museum and a visit to several collections, including Tom Kalman's. I was so impressed with some of Tom's rugs that I bought a Chinese chair back when some of his collection was sold at Rippon-Boswell after he died.

It seems like rug groups like this are defunct around the world, and the lament about no young collectors is also heard round the world.

Here is the chairback:

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Old June 21st, 2018, 02:27 AM   #37
Danielle Duperreault
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Hi Marvin, thanks for the spotlight on the rug community in Toronto pre-2000. The kind of club experience you describe here sounds exactly right: matching-up collectors with people who are interested in, and/or hopefully somewhat knowledgeable about, the collection. For the pure pleasure of it. You are right, these are the sorts of experiences that we remember.

I hope the F.O.R. group survives the museum's reorganisation. I guess time will tell.

Many young people love oriental rugs. But the cost is so prohibitive they usually don't bother pursuing the interest. I am guessing that the rise and recent commercialisation of the "shabby-chic" rug aesthetic is a symptom of the demand, by young people, for affordable antique rugs (holes and all).

The chair back is impressive. Was it a temple/cultic piece by any chance?
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Old June 21st, 2018, 01:10 PM   #38
Marvin Amstey
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Good morning Danielle
I don't believe that this was a temple piece; most likely a decorative device for the chair of an aristocrat - or - simply a piece for trade. But the wool and dyes are wonderful, and it is a good example of early 'carving' to enhance design and borders. Unfortunately, this image does not show the 'carving' very well. It is most prominent along the wave border.
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Old June 22nd, 2018, 03:47 AM   #39
Dinie Gootjes
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Thanks, Danielle, we will have to wait then. The CTM had an interesting rug exhibition in 2015, but maybe that was "before your time" .
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Old June 22nd, 2018, 01:57 PM   #40
Danielle Duperreault
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Marvin, If I look closely, enough, I can see the carving, especially in the waves. It is altogether very elegant and leaves me wondering about all my nude chairs. The centre wheel threw me a bit---so cultic! As for your mafrash in another post, I think it is lovely. I can't offer much more than that, I'm afraid.

Hi Dinie: Indeed, we just have to wait to hear back from the CTM. I missed the 2015 exhibit, but I did see some photos of the items that were on display. Very nice.

I've been going through a bunch of older posts on here. NICE RUGS, PEOPLE!!!

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