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Old September 3rd, 2017, 12:07 AM   #41
Kay Dee
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Originally Posted by Joel Greifinger View Post
K.D.,

That photo shows up quite large on my computer monitor and takes up the entire space on my tablet. Photos larger than this make it very tough to view for various monitors/devices.

Joel
Odd, shows up about half size I posted on my computer.

And no problems not to be able to separate thread, just thought I'd ask, as it seems to have gone in two directions now. So be it. Que sera, sera.

Last edited by Kay Dee; September 3rd, 2017 at 08:14 AM.
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Old September 3rd, 2017, 12:49 PM   #42
Pierre Galafassi
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Hi guys,

I am sure most of you have their copy of Hans Bidder’s Carpets from Turkestan.

A more precise title could have been - Carpets from Eastern Turkestan- as the focus is clearly on rugs from the oasis cities surrounding the Takla Makan, especially on Khotan rugs.
However, it is very interesting for any groupie of Chinese rugs too, since Bidder exposes his very personal, (but well argued and based on many antique Chinese reports) theory about the importance (or rather the lack of importance) of pile rugs for the (Han) Chinese civilization.

Jeff Sun and I did debate a bit this point in a thread of the series «Rugs and Old Masters»
http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthr...p?t=913&page=3

Members of the Chinomaniac sect of the Turkotek community, might want to share with us their opinions about the history of genuinely Chinese rugs, in a new thread, one of these days? I, for one, would be glad to learn more about this field.


About Glanz der Himmelsöhne: IMHO an imperfect understanding of German by its readers is not really a problem, as this book is only outstanding in the number and quality of its illustrations.
The text itself is not particularly exciting, at least for me, as it does not really clarify the history of Chinese rugs.

Besides, Jeff is fully right: the focus is clearly on Western China Ningxia rugs, probably woven, mainly or exclusively, by (Sinicized) Turco-Mongol ethnic groups and is much less focused on genuine (Han) Chinese rugs, except half a dozen of (superb) Court rugs, very likely to have been woven in Imperial Workshops in Beijing for example. There is also the odd pile rug clearly influenced by steppe felt rugs.

Best regards
Pierre
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Old September 4th, 2017, 06:34 AM   #43
Kay Dee
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Although I have several East Turkestan rugs I would not fell comfortable myself re 'debating them' as I know little about 'em 'cept I like (most of) them.

Now re the other book mentioned on Ningxia rugs; besides the title it then says "TEPPICHE AUS CHINA, 1400 - 1750."

Given that IMO we rarely, and I mean very rarely, see on the market Ningxia examples earlier than the 1700's (and then usually pretty tattered):
1) what condition are these very early rugs in?
2) are the examples 'weighted' evenly accross that date range, or.......?
And, finally,
3) more importantly where did they come from? (Yes, Ningxia, but..........who has them now, private individuals / collectors or museums and the like?)

TIA for any answers.
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Old September 4th, 2017, 04:34 PM   #44
Pierre Galafassi
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Hi Kay,

I‘d have to browse through the book again to check my rather poor memory, but I believe that most of the oldest extant specimens (15th and 16th century) were supposedly woven in China’s Imperial workshops, for the Palace. Silk pile, palette (imperial gold orange) and main motif (imperial dragons with the proper count of claws), make this attribution quite credible IMHO.
The authors tentatively mention Beijin as weaving place, but do not even try to guess the ethnic origin of the weavers.

Quite a number of state portraits of enthroned Emperors from the 14th to the 19th century are also shown. They mostly feature rugs with geometric motifs of an amazingly constant type, spanning dynasties and centuries. Design and palette are mostly very different from the mentioned extant*Imperial dragon rugs*.

The oldest extant rugs from Ningsia (the focus of this book) and from other northwestern China origins (Xinjiang,..), are dated from the 16th and 17th century, a few pieces are probably older, but most illustrated pieces are given as 18h century.

Of course there are more 17th and 18th century rugs than 14th-16th century ones in this book, but the older ones are still quite a gang and quite impressive, at least for me.

Considering their ages, all these extant pieces are still in an amazingly good state of conservation.

By far most rugs are owned by unnamed collectors and I would not be surprised to hear that they are published for the first time. The remaining ones are owned by museums like the Musée des Arts Décoratifs de Lyon, the Textile Museum, Washington, the Gion Festival Museum, Kioto, the Al-Thani Collection, Quatar, the National Palace, Taipei, the Museum der Angewandte Kunst, Frankfurt, the Thyssen-Bornemisza Collection and the Museum for Ostasiatische Kunst, Köln.
I would not expect these pieces to change hands very often.

I hope to have, at least in part, answered your questions.
Best regards
Pierre
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Old September 4th, 2017, 04:40 PM   #45
Kay Dee
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You and Jeff have convinced me, book is on order.


Edit: And yes, Pierre, THANKS for answering ALL my questions, and then some!

Last edited by Kay Dee; September 5th, 2017 at 07:45 AM.
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Old September 5th, 2017, 08:58 AM   #46
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And on that note................ .................... ..............so folks (who may not be so familiar with same) can get a could handle on the distinctive Chinese weaving (as opposed to Tibetan weaving, which I will post one of here later).
Better late than never as they say, but re underlined above, see below a comparison between Chinese and Tibetan rug knotting / weaning 'style' in a 1 inch exact / approx 2.5cm square.

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Old September 6th, 2017, 12:05 AM   #47
Kay Dee
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Another book (oldish) I can recommend to the true Tibetophile/ Ningxiaophile is:

Carpets from China, Xinjiang and Tibet by Lennart Larsson Jnr. (pub 1989)

Coincidentally, although have had the book for sometime, recently meet / am now friends with the woman that was the authors personal friend and sold most of the collection in the book sometime in the 90's, or thereabouts. Wow (for her)!
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Old September 6th, 2017, 01:16 AM   #48
Lloyd Kannenberg
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Hello Kay,

Thanks for the detailed images comparing Chinese and Tibetan weaves!

BTW, I hope the communications problems have been solved, thanks to Steve.

Lloyd Kannenberg
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Old September 6th, 2017, 02:12 AM   #49
Jeff Sun
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Originally Posted by Kay Dee View Post
Another book (oldish) I can recommend to the true Tibetophile/ Ningxiaophile is:

Carpets from China, Xinjiang and Tibet by Lennart Larsson Jnr. (pub 1989)

Coincidentally, although have had the book for sometime, recently meet / am now friends with the woman that was the authors personal friend and sold most of the collection in the book sometime in the 90's, or thereabouts. Wow (for her)!
Thanks again. I just picked this one up for $9 including shipping. Tough to pass it up at that price.

As for the author who sold the collection: I get that. I don't place too high a value on material things, so carpets are something of an exception. In fact, sometimes I rather like the IDEA of carpets more than carpets themselves.

My wife has often asked "What are you going to do with all of these rugs?".... meaning when I have gone to the great barkor in the sky, some one is going to have to deal with my collection. Fair point I suppose. But also easily solved, I think: Donate them to a museum and get the resulting charitable tax deduction! I may eventually do it myself for that matter.

As to Glanz, Yes. most of the rugs are in great condition. Most are Ningxia and undoubtedly some are from imperial workshops as Pierre mentioned.

Last edited by Jeff Sun; September 6th, 2017 at 02:25 AM.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 07:14 AM   #50
Kay Dee
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I just picked this one up for $9 including shipping. Tough to pass it up at that price............... .........As for the author who sold the collection: I get that. I don't place too high a value on material things, so carpets are something of an exception. In fact, sometimes I rather like the IDEA of carpets more than carpets themselves.
Yes the $9 you paid was a good price alright, I think I paid a little more plus shipping. But, here, in a second hand bookstore (a rarity in itself) if you want to buy what they think is a rare copy - guess their not to hip to all the online 'bookshops' - it's a $100 .

And again yes, I certainly get the idea of the idea of carpets more than the carpets themselves, hence why I can (do) buy a 'lot' of carpets (in book fashion) for what is just a sliver of the cost of a carpet itself! But, when something catches my eye, of course I still buy the carpets too.

And re re the lady who sold most of said collection, she certainly wishes she still had (most of) them now though!
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Old September 6th, 2017, 07:18 AM   #51
Kay Dee
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Originally Posted by Lloyd Kannenberg View Post
Hello Kay,
BTW, I hope the communications problems have been solved, thanks to Steve.
Lloyd Kannenberg
Argh, no, I haven't heard from you Lloyd, (nor received your email address from Steve, if that's how it works?).
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Old September 6th, 2017, 11:53 AM   #52
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Hi Lloyd and Kay

I received messages from both of you, each asking for the other's e-mail address. I forwarded Kay's to Lloyd, forwarded Lloyd's to Kay. I can't think of any good reason why they shouldn't have gotten to their destinations.

Steve
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Old September 6th, 2017, 05:26 PM   #53
Kay Dee
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Hi Lloyd and Kay

I received messages from both of you, each asking for the other's e-mail address. I forwarded Kay's to Lloyd, forwarded Lloyd's to Kay. I can't think of any good reason why they shouldn't have gotten to their destinations.

Steve
Hi Steve,

Nope, as of 9am, west coast USA time 6th Sept, not in any of my emails address boxes or spam/junk folders (and no contact from Lloyd).

Eaten up in cyber space it seems.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 06:37 PM   #54
Kay Dee
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Default Opps!!!!!!

Opps, Opps. OPPS!

Argh, ummm, Steve, do you think if I put my current email address on my profile page as it were, would that help?

So maybe, just maybe, that's the problem!

Seems when I changed servers a few months ago, I forgot to update my new address on this board. Shame on me and my sincere apologies Steve (and Lloyd)

But, odd that your message/s 'to me' Steve just didn't bounce right back, as that email address is no longer in existence, and the few people I know that tried to contact me elsewhere that way got a 'bounce back'.

Anyway, current one is there now. Again, my apologies Steve / Lloyd.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 08:12 PM   #55
Steve Price
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Hi

I just sent an email message to both of you (Lloyd and Kay). You can harvest each other's email addresses from it.

If that doesn't solve the problem, you'll have to find some other way to do it or leave it unsolved. We don't do anything commercial on our pages. Facilitating it under the table isn't forbidden, but it's not something I want to be bothered with, either.

Steve
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Old September 7th, 2017, 03:49 AM   #56
Kay Dee
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Hi
I just sent an email message to both of you (Lloyd and Kay). You can harvest each other's email addresses from it.

If that doesn't solve the problem, you'll have to find some other way to do it or leave it unsolved. We don't do anything commercial on our pages. Facilitating it under the table isn't forbidden, but it's not something I want to be bothered with, either.
Steve
Hi Guys,

Thanks (again) Steve, got it this time!

Marvelous how things work when one puts in the correct information.

Anyway Lloyd, if you also got the email from Steve, flick me an email and I'll get right back to you.

And no Steve, the contact with Lloyd is not primarily re 'commercial interest/s' by any means, but there are some things I would like to say / discuss with Llyod re some matters that do not need to be discussed on the forum.
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Old September 9th, 2017, 02:12 AM   #57
Rich Larkin
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Default William Blake...

Hi folks,

I must take advantage of this visit from the Chinese/Tibetan rug mavens to get some comments on my little item.







For the record, the yellow colors in the first image are more intense than the real thing. The close-up (second) image is a good representation of the colors in the piece. The rug is about 3’ 6” X 2’.

I am interested in your responses to the following details:
  • The pale yellow border has an endless repeat of swastika shapes incised into the surface of the pile. It is suggestive of 'carved' Chinese rugs that were being exported in the third quarter of the 20th century, but much more subtle. Just noticing it requires close attention. My question is whether anyone has seen the same phenomenon in other older Chinese rugs. (I have not.)
  • Another point of interest is the design color of the central field against the yellow background. I call it "stone green," and I have not found it in any other rug. The places featuring the color are uniformly lower than the surrounding yellow. I have surmised that the dye was corrosive, resulting in that effect; but I imagine the pile in those areas could have been clipped shorter intentionally. Any thoughts in that regard? (It does seem that the so-called "stone green" could easily be a combination of the lightest blue of the rug and the strong yellow of the field; if that were the case, it might augur for the theory that the color was intentonally clipped low.) I am aware the general design is considered to represent a tiger pelt, and is a known Chinese mat or saddle rug design.
  • An interesting detail of the design appears in the detail shot. It is the single line of black within one of the tiger stripes. In fact, this stripe is along one edge of the field about half way up the rug. It consists of ten knots, and it is repeated exactly in a corresponding stripe on the opposite side of the field. The knots are black, not the deep blue found elsewhere in the rug. The black yarn does not occur anywhere else in the rug other than in those two stripes. The black lines are lower pile like the green areas adjoining them. Certainly, the thin black lines were incorporated intentionally. Does anyone know what the reason may have been? Identifying markers? Does this sort of talismanic feature appear often in other Chinese rugs?

I am interested to know whether any readers have encountered any of these features in other Chinese rugs, and I would be happy to receive any other comments about my mat.

Rich
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Old September 9th, 2017, 07:06 AM   #58
Kay Dee
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Default Tiger rug

Just quickly Rich as am on my way out, but on first glance of your rug, WOW!

'Looks' very nice!!

When back on-line will have closer look / read of your questions (which require a precise read / think about) and see what, if anything, I can come up with.

Thanks for posting!!!
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Old September 10th, 2017, 03:58 PM   #59
Kay Dee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Larkin View Post
Hi folks,
For the record, the yellow colors in the first image are more intense than the real thing. The close-up (second) image is a good representation of the colors in the piece. The rug is about 3’ 6” X 2’.
I am interested in your responses to the following details:
  • The pale yellow border has an endless repeat of swastika shapes incised into the surface of the pile. It is suggestive of 'carved' Chinese rugs that were being exported in the third quarter of the 20th century, but much more subtle. Just noticing it requires close attention. My question is whether anyone has seen the same phenomenon in other older Chinese rugs. (I have not.)
Yes I (think) I have but not necessarily with swastikas. I say I think I have as, without looking through an endless array of saved photos to find a specific, I have seen a couple of old Chinese rugs that appear to have small features incised, but then one sometimes wonders if the dye, or something else in the tight surrounds causes this ‘aberration'. But yours does look deliberately incised to me. So not sure what to say here, but looks older that mid to late 20c to me. But hey, there are relatively new rugs, specifically Wangdens, coming out of Tibet now that are somewhat hard to discern the true age of (in a photo, anyway).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Larkin View Post
  • Another point of interest is the design color of the central field against the yellow background. I call it "stone green," and I have not found it in any other rug. The places featuring the color are uniformly lower than the surrounding yellow.
  • Argh, see my above.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Rich Larkin View Post
    I have surmised that the dye was corrosive, resulting in that effect; but I imagine the pile in those areas could have been clipped shorter intentionally.
    In one of the old Chinese rugs I have I am almost certain that this is the case.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Rich Larkin View Post
    Any thoughts in that regard? (It does seem that the so-called "stone green" could easily be a combination of the lightest blue of the rug and the strong yellow of the field;
    Yes, IMO, without it in my hand, the stripes and backbone, if that’s what you refer to, appear bluer to me.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Rich Larkin View Post
    If that were the case, it might augur for the theory that the color was intentionally clipped low.)
    Again, see my (high)above.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Rich Larkin View Post
    I am aware the general design is considered to represent a tiger pelt, and is a known Chinese mat or saddle rug design.
Correct. But generally, seemingly either made for the Tibetan market, or for a high Chinese Lama or official, or more / as commonly actually made in Tibet (which yours obviously is not). For instance, see The Tiger Rugs Of Tibet by Mini Lipton.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Larkin View Post
  • An interesting detail of the design appears in the detail shot. It is the single line of black within one of the tiger stripes. In fact, this stripe is along one edge of the field about half way up the rug. It consists of ten knots, and it is repeated exactly in a corresponding stripe on the opposite side of the field. The knots are black, not the deep blue found elsewhere in the rug. The black yarn does not occur anywhere else in the rug other than in those two stripes. The black lines are lower pile like the green areas adjoining them. Certainly, the thin black lines were incorporated intentionally. Does anyone know what the reason may have been? Identifying markers? Does this sort of talismanic feature appear often in other Chinese rugs?
You’ve got me their Rich, first for even noticing them! So, on this, the best I can do is say your guess is as good as mine here!

Below a couple of other ‘Chinese’ Tiger rugs and one Tibetan to ponder.

One (the borderless older one, supposedly circa 1850) definitely a saddle ‘top’ rug (which given the dimensions of your one Rich, yours just ‘may’ be, but if so appears unused / little used in that ‘position’ as it were).

And a bottom saddle rug from Batou supposedly, but claimed date (late 19c) seems a liitle suspect to me. But................. ......anything is possible in the world of rugs. (However, note the 'similar' main border to yours.)

And finally another rug from China 'somewhere'. Note the unique / very odd ends!






Last edited by Kay Dee; September 10th, 2017 at 04:04 PM.
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Old September 10th, 2017, 05:15 PM   #60
Rich Larkin
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Hi Kay,

Thanks for the comments.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Larkin
Quote:
I have surmised that the dye was corrosive, resulting in that effect; but I imagine the pile in those areas could have been clipped shorter intentionally.
In one of the old Chinese rugs I have I am almost certain that this is the case.
What do you think is the case? That the dye was corrosive, or that the pile was clipped low in the first instance?

I acquired the rug in about 1970, and it looked then exactly like it does now. Note for example the dark stain in the lower left corner. That was evidently an ink stain, and it still appears blue in the cotton wefts when viewed from the back, as though it happened a couple of months ago. But it turned brownish in the pile parts on the surface. I would think that happened over a considerable period of time. Anyway, that was the opinion of the man who sold it to me, a gentleman of considerable experience in the oriental rug business. I think the mat is probably pre-1900.

Your comment about the Chinese rug possibly having been woven for the Tibetan market (or perhaps some other specific market) is interesting. It is evident that the various design elements are part of a specific tradition, as reflected for example in the middle one of the three pieces you posted. In that regard, by the way, I had owned it for quite a while before I came to realize it represented a tiger pelt. Before that discovery, I had been working on a theory that had the wiggily stripes as some sort of sea creature, the spine down the middle a feeding trough, and the outer border a vast, foaming ocean. All I can say about that is, speculative research can be extremely dangerous.

Rich
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