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Virtual Show and Tell Just what the title says it is.

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Old April 19th, 2017, 07:05 PM   #21
Chuck Wagner
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Hi,

To my eye, asymmetrical open right. But for a minute I thought I saw a mihrab, so...

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Chuck Wagner
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Old April 19th, 2017, 07:45 PM   #22
Rich Larkin
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Hi Chuck,

Quote:
To my eye, asymmetrical open right.
I think you may be right. My previous judgment (symmetrical) was based on the look of the knot collars in the longer range images in Dila's earlier post. These more recent shots give a different impression. The computer with which I am making do for the time being lacks the capacity for image manipulation in order to get a better look. (For starters, the newer images are ninety degrees off the ideal viewing angle.)

BTW, noting Mumford again, he said the Niris rug came in the symmetrical knot; not that the statement counts for anything useful. My paradigm for Niris (Nieriz, etc.), design-wise, has been elegantly drawn, largish boteh, usually on a red field. Also, I considered them among the more refined of South Persian work. I don't remember encountering this cool tree design as shown on Dila's piece and on the Maktabi site. I think it is a great looker.

Rich
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Old April 19th, 2017, 10:27 PM   #23
Joel Greifinger
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Quote:
I was unsure how the Neiriz (Niriz, Niris, etc.) attribution fit into the larger
South Persian context. It has been in the books throughout the years.

BTW, noting Mumford again, he said the Niris rug came in the symmetrical knot; not that the statement counts for anything useful. My paradigm for Niris (Nieriz, etc.), design-wise, has been elegantly drawn, largish boteh, usually on a red field. Also, I considered them among the more refined of South Persian work.

As Hadi Maktabi implies on his very interesting site, the history of what was going on in rug weaving through the years is very murky.
Hi all,

In "In Search of Neyriz", (Hali 161, Autumn 2009), Richard Purdon reviewed the rug literature over the course of the 20th century to see if the Neyriz (Niris, Neriz, etc.) attribution picked out a recognizable group of rugs. It seems to have been used by different authors to designate asymmetrically-knotted rugs and symmetrically-knotted ones; rugs with little warp-depression and others with deep warp depression; rugs with cotton foundations and others with wool. The group of rugs that he nominates to be the 'real' Neyriz don't seem to have any better credentials for the title than any of the others.

There was a long discussion on the topic of Neriz rugs in 2014 on a rug group on Facebook. A number of dealers of long experience from a variety of countries weighed in on their use of the term. Perhaps the most elaborated description came from John Collins.

Collins wrote, "This group has several features which distinguish them from other Afshar groups. 1. a more somber palette than most Afshars 2. very depressed warps and dark wefts, unlike the relatively flat backs and red, pink or orange wefts of the main body of Afshar work 3. long, plain and dark kilim end (where they have survived).

This group employs dense, repetitive designs in the field. The warm reds of most Afshars are not found in this group. Even when the scale of the field figures is larger, the density is maintained. The orange border systems of these examples is typical.

Now, all of that said, we learned to call these "Neirez" from Persian dealers in the trade many years ago. I have no idea whether they were made in that place. But, having handled scores of them over the years, I can definitely say that there is a very specific and definable group of Afshars which we call "Neirez". If some scholar has a better name or more solid information about them, I am perfectly willing to change my nomenclature. But the reality of this unique group is not in question."

He illustrated with these rugs:







Of course, Dr. Hadi Maktabi (the first, and to my knowledge, only D. Phil. [Ph.D.] to come out of Oxford University's doctoral program in Islamic Art and Carpet Studies), is certainly correct about the murkiness. Perhaps the eventual publication of his doctoral dissertation on post-Safavid (18th and 19th century) Persian carpets will lessen some confusion.

Joel
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Old April 20th, 2017, 01:22 AM   #24
Rich Larkin
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Good stuff, Joel. For one thing, this is the first I have heard that the so-called "Neiriz" rugs were alleged to be the work of Afshari weavers (adding yet another distinct production item to their portfolio).

I am buying John Collins' rationale. I suspect there is a good number of rug groupings that can be defined because they fit a specific profile, but which take on a name (either a people or a place) that is not accurate as to their real provenance. Some of these we know, such as the situations where the name reflects a place where they were collected before export, Hamadan for example.

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Old April 20th, 2017, 09:15 PM   #25
Joel Greifinger
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A bit more from the 2014 Facebook exchange:

Alberto Levi wrote: "I recognize the Neriz (or Sirjan as some people call them) group of Afshars simply by their Bijar-like handle." Long-time California dealer Keith Rocklin responded, "Me too" and gave this description,"Sirjan is another name sometimes used for them. This is an area where Khamsehs and Afshars crossed paths, hence Parham's confusion of them with Khamsehs.

But some of us have always used the term to describe a distinctive and easily defined type of Afshar. Here are details two of them. Notice the typical 3 or 4 equal-sized borders. These are a little unusual, partly because of the ivory fields. More typical ones have small flowerheads arranged in a repeat design and many are heavily corroded with vertical wear lines. Almost all of them are about the same throw-size, have wool foundations, Persian knots, heavily depressed warps and when present very similar brown and pistachio-colored stripedkilims with several shots of bi-colored brocade from selvedge to selvedge. The second one is a very cramped version of what I call design group 2 with birds and tulips. I used to see this design group all the time but very few in the last 15 years."

He posted these examples:





On the other hand, this is what Edwards called a Neyriz from the vantage point of 20th century production:



Joel

Last edited by Joel Greifinger; April 20th, 2017 at 09:28 PM.
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Old April 21st, 2017, 02:10 AM   #26
Dinie Gootjes
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Hi Dila,

Great piece! I find it interesting that the border on your rug is often seen in a type of rug many dealers call a ru korssi from the Shiraz area, see post #8 in this thread:

http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=3337

I was getting my numbers mixed up there "Out of ten I have a picture of, three (including yours) have that border, the other eight have a flower and bird border." On recount, out of 9 clear examples, 6 have the flower and bird border your rug has, while the remaining 3 have the one from the Hadi Maktabi rug. Which sounds like more than a coincidence. And then there is another rug, very similar to both the ru korssi type and your rug:

http://www.rugrabbit.com/node/134618

So now are those square rugs "ru korssi Neiriz la Edwards"? Just give me apple pie la mode.
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Old April 21st, 2017, 02:59 AM   #27
Rich Larkin
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Hi Joel,

I am amazed you came up with that illustration from Edwards. How did I miss it!? Nice work!

It is interesting that the rugs passed in the trade as both "Niriz" and "Sirjan." The two towns are about 150 kilometers apart as the crow flies, and about half way (as a pair) between Shiraz and Kerman. One wonders whether similar rugs came from the two locations. There appears to be a strip of very high lands, if not mountains, between Niriz and Sirjan. Was there additional information in either the Purdon article or the Facebook discussion shedding light on the actual provenance of the rugs?

Rich
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Old April 21st, 2017, 03:16 AM   #28
Rich Larkin
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Hi Dinie,

Interesting that the square "ru korsi" style piece Memarian had on RR features a fully-depressed-warp structure clearly of the Bijar kind.

Rich
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Old April 22nd, 2017, 02:44 AM   #29
Dinie Gootjes
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Hi Rich,

To be honest, I had not even looked at that. I have two more backs, one from a rug almost identical to the first one in the TT link I gave, one from a very similar rug with a bigger design in the centre of the field than most. Both show considerable warp depression, though the backs are not so tight and regular as the Memarian piece. Maybe Paul has a shot of the back of his rug?





I don't know what knots are used in these rugs, I only possess the pictures . Paul to the rescue?

Dinie
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Old April 22nd, 2017, 05:43 AM   #30
Paul Smith
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Hi Dinie, et al.

I'm always a bit tentative about structural analysis, but my rug seems to be asymmetrically knotted, open right, with a fair amount of warp depression. Because the birds in the corners of the field are the characteristic Khamseh Federation "murgh" drawing and the warps look like those of Khamseh "Arabi" rugs, that has been my standard guess on attribution. I don't really know, of course...



Paul
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Old April 22nd, 2017, 12:53 PM   #31
Chuck Wagner
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Hi all,

Geetting back to basics for a minute, I've been able to dive into my library a bit.

From the "for what it's worth" department, I'll note that both Eric Aschenbrenner in "Oriental Rugs V. 2, Persian", and Pete Stone in his "Oriental Carpet Design", state that Niriz rugs have an all-cotton foundation.

Stone goes on to note that this distinguishes them from other Shirazi work, and that their tree rug designs - in particular - mimic Afshar work. Their comments on color palette imply the use of a lot more red than what we see on Dila's rug.

I agree with Rich that the wefts on that rug appear to be cotton, but the wefts are wool, and largely dark. The sombre palette and materials seem to steer away from the structural descriptions of Niriz rugs in the literature.

Regards
Chuck Wagner
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Old April 22nd, 2017, 05:16 PM   #32
Patrick Weiler
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Joel,

All of the rugs John Collins used as examples of Niriz rugs have the large-lobed-flower meander border. I posted this curious piece a while back with that same border. The construction on this piece is entirely unlike those Collins described as "somber...depressed. ..dark (The mental state of a rug collector?) It is more like his description of "relatively flat backs and red, pink or orange wefts of the main body of Afshar work". But it doesn't much look like any Afshar work other than the border.



However, I also have a little chanteh-khorjin face with this border. I have sent photos off to the little kiosk in the grocery store parking lot for the film to be developed. When I get the black and white pictures back, I will hand-tint them and post them here.

That photo Edwards published may be what was used as the original example which dealers and collectors attributed from then on as Niriz rugs. Albertos rugs look entirely different from both Collins and Edwards. Dila's rug looks like the Edwards piece.
So there are several quite different types of rugs in structure, colors, design and shape which are called Niriz. Some with more "Afsharish" features and some with more "Khamsehish" features. This uncertainty may be why Opie has no Niriz rugs in either his Tribal Rugs book or Tribal Rugs of Southern Persia. Brian MacDonald shows a "tree" Afshar Neyriz rug in his Tribal Rugs.
Even Oriental Rugs a complete guide, by Eiland and Eiland, shows no Niriz rugs. The town is mentioned, Niris, but no rugs.

Even the experts are flummoxed. They can't even all agree on the spelling.

Patrick Weiler
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Old April 22nd, 2017, 06:24 PM   #33
Chuck Wagner
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Hi,

Well, Skinners apparently believes in Neriz tree rugs. This one sold in October 2010, with the description:

Quote:
Neriz Rug, Southwest Persia, early 20th century, (linear rewoven area along inner guard stripe, minor end fraying), 6 ft. 9 in. x 5 ft. 4 in. Literature: For an illustration of a similar rug, please refer to The Persian Carpet by A. Cecil Edwards, 1953, p. 302, photo 324.


Note that it has the red shades we might expect somewhere in a Shiraz rug.

That said, I've seen others with the same design listed as Afshar, with question-marked additional labels like, Neriz ?. So, as Pat notes. good luck with this....

Regards
Chuck Wagner
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Old April 22nd, 2017, 09:10 PM   #34
Joel Greifinger
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Hi all,

Purdon begins his "In Search of Neyriz" article, "As hemlines rise and fall, so the attributions of rug types respond to fashion...One such attribution concerns so-called 'Neyriz' rugs of southeastern Fars Province." He certainly got that part right.

I agree with Pat that the Edwards photo likely provided the "Neyriz" label for a group of 20th century rugs that shared certain design features, most notably certain tree and bird motifs. As Purdon points out, these rugs are different from the various older contenders for the designation. Those would include the ones described by Collins, Levi and Rocklin. Since, as Pat also points out, there are quite different types of rugs (even among the not a la Edwards pool) that have been called Neyriz, we seem to have stumbled on yet another rug nomenclature Rorschach.

Joel
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Old April 22nd, 2017, 11:08 PM   #35
Rich Larkin
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Hi all,

Not that it means anything, but I decided a long time ago that Niriz was one of those vague labels hanging around for the taking to be applied to any rug or group of rugs somebody wanted to single out as special. More cachet than "Shiraz."

Chuck, if you showed me the rug you posted at frame #33 with the central area (inside the borders) hidden, I would expect one of the usual suspect Afshar designs to belong in there.

Patrick, I forget what you concluded for the provenance of your nice little herati khorjin. Kurdish, right? I usually figure that middle border of alternating flower heads on white to be a Kurdish marker.

Rich
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Old April 23rd, 2017, 05:11 AM   #36
Patrick Weiler
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Here is my small Afshar piece with the same large-lobed floral meander border as found in the several John Collins Niriz rugs from Joel's post #23. It is a diminutive 20" x 10", with 8x11 for 88 symmetric knots per square inch. The wefts are red, the warps either white or white and brown plied together and moderate to nearly complete warp depression.



I took these pictures with my new i-phone. If you want a phone with good picture resolution, this is not the one. I had to tone down the brightness to get even a passable representation of the actual colors. This next picture of the back appears to show a screaming red, but it is actually a dusky dull red in hand.



Perhaps a Niriz Afshar attribution might be appropriate? It has the "more somber palette than most Afshars"
(definitely somber, even though my photos do not show it)
It also has very depressed warps, but red wefts and not the dark wefts John noted.

It also looks nothing like the Niriz Dila posted. If these "tree Niriz" rugs aren't "true" Niriz rugs, then what are they? The town of Niriz is 137 miles east of Shiraz, in the Fars Province, a region where Khamseh and Afshar nomads would have interacted. Sirjan, in Kerman Province, is nearly the same distance east of Niriz. With a population less than 50,000 in the town of Niriz, and 100,000 in the region, it is not as heavily populated as Shiraz with 1.5 million people and Sirjan with 325,000 people. I do not have access to the Tanavoli book on Afshar rugs to know if some additional information on Niriz rugs is available from that source.

Patrick Weiler
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Old April 23rd, 2017, 10:25 PM   #37
Joel Greifinger
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Quote:
I do not have access to the Tanavoli book on Afshar rugs to know if some additional information on Niriz rugs is available from that source.
Hi Pat,

As far as I can find, Tanavoli never mentions Neyriz (under any of its spellings) in his Afshar book. However, in his 1991 Hali article on the Afshar, he wrote: "Proximity allowed the Khamseh tribes of Fars and Neyriz to the west to exert considerable influence on Sirjan weavings so that many of them, especially the flatweaves, are hard to distinguish from those of the Khamseh. Striped rugs and examples with tree designs are made both in Neyriz and Sirjan." The article includes this rug labeled "'Neyriz' Afshar Rug. Sirjan area, Kerman Province". It is symmetrically-knotted on a wool foundation with depressed warps.



Quote:
Here is my small Afshar piece with the same large-lobed floral meander border as found in the several John Collins Niriz rugs...Perhaps a Niriz Afshar attribution might be appropriate?
Given the status of the term, it can certainly be Niriz if you wish it to be.

Joel

Last edited by Joel Greifinger; April 23rd, 2017 at 10:54 PM.
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Old April 24th, 2017, 01:18 AM   #38
Chuck Wagner
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Hi all,

Here's another Niriz tidbit. When all else fails, go to the reference that you should have used to begin with: Neff & Maggs

I was more than a bit surprised to look in there and find this reference item:



Regards
Chuck Wagner
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Old April 24th, 2017, 04:02 AM   #39
Joel Greifinger
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Quote:
When all else fails, go to the reference that you should have used to begin with: Neff & Maggs


To paraphrase the early 20th century dramatist Luigi Pirandello, "It is Neyriz, if you think it is."

Joel
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Old April 24th, 2017, 09:21 PM   #40
Joel Greifinger
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In his book, Visions of Nature: The Antique Weavings of Persia, Jim Burns includes Neiriz in his section on the Khamseh Confederation. He writes, "Neiriz weavers employed a distinctive greenish-yellow color which they created from combining indigo and weld and soaking the wool with straw." The example he shows has brown wool warps, cotton wefts and is asymmetrically-knotted:



To each, their own Neiriz.

Joel
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