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Old January 10th, 2018, 01:22 AM   #21
Chuck Wagner
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Hi Rich, everyone,

Here are more images of the rug that owns the inscription. We diverge briefly from the Shirvan topic here, but remain on point with 3 character dates.

This is an oddball; I think I may have posted one image of it before, likely more than a decade ago. Structurally, 12H x 19V, symmetrical knots, thin ivory white warps, even thinner red wool weft. Selvage is 4 cords wrapped in red wool.

I have two closeups of the inscription, one from the from and one (reversed) from the back.

I'll be interested to read opinions.















Regards
Chuck

Last edited by Chuck Wagner; January 10th, 2018 at 03:16 AM.
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Old January 10th, 2018, 02:05 AM   #22
Rich Larkin
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Hi Folks,

For everybody's edification, here is the Straka rug, which in my opinion has become the paradigm for the type.



This one and a number of the others closely resembling it are smallish as Caucasian prayer rugs go. The Straka is 2' 11" X 3' 9".

Anyone wishing to see several striking examples of the type can google 'Straka Marasali Prayer Rug' and bring up many illustrations on one page.

Chuck, very interesting pics of your rug. More later, as supper beckons. More, but little of much import. !

Rich
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Old January 10th, 2018, 02:07 AM   #23
Rich Larkin
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Hi Joel,

Quote:
Evidently, that uncouth knave has been improperly socialized into the norms and values of polite ruggie society.
Lord knows I did what I could. It was a grueling process, with mixed results to be sure.

Rich
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Old January 11th, 2018, 01:36 AM   #24
Patrick Weiler
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Chuck,

That is a beguiling rug you have there. I am not sure if that is a proper rug term. Perhaps for properness we should ask Joel, as he is properly socialized. Nonetheless, if Rich can use edification and paradigm in the same sentence, I can use beguiling.
For some reason the kilim ends remind me of Kordi work.
The field design is an interesting take on the vaq-vaq style, with horse heads, snakes and slithering creatures of indeterminate morphology. The curious bilateral and mirror symmetry takes any south Persian weavers out of the running, as they are most fond of free-style designs. For a "formal" rug, the symmetric knots are a little out of context.
I suggest you wait another 10-12 years and post it again.


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Old January 11th, 2018, 02:52 AM   #25
Rich Larkin
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Hi Patrick,

What the heck? I thought you were going some place with that post until it dropped off the table. You were on a roll with the vaq-vaq analysis. Meanwhile, I would like to know where Chuck's rug came from, but I am not coming up with anything good.

Chuck, I assume the thin ivory warps are wool. Was it attributed anywhere specific when you acquired it?

Rich
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Old January 17th, 2018, 03:07 AM   #26
Chuck Wagner
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Pat,

Quote:
What the heck? I thought you were going some place with that post until it dropped off the table. You were on a roll with the vaq-vaq analysis.
Yeah. What he said...

A friend of mine suggested Afshar. I have always wondered about Heriz.

Anyway, put the thinking cap back on, while I go to see if I can provide more detail on the structure & materials.

Still pondering your remarkably cryptic inscription.

Regards
Chuck
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Old January 17th, 2018, 04:34 AM   #27
Rich Larkin
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Chuck,

While you are at it, say some more about what is going on with the first few lines of warp as you come in from the selvage. From that back, I would surmise the selvages are multi-corded, as you would see on a Baluch rug, and that is how you described it above; but from the pile side, it seems that is not the case. What is up with that?

Also, I get the impression from a few of the images that the rug is one of those tightly woven ones that doesn't want to lie flat. True? How would you describe the handle and texture?

I don't see Heriz at all. There is a distant resemblance in the design, but that is it. The only reason I would go with Afshar is that those folks seem to be the default weavers of every unidentifiable rug that comes along these days. I have a faint sense that in another life, I knew where the rug was from, but I am blanking on it here.

Rich
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Old January 18th, 2018, 10:35 PM   #28
Chuck Wagner
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Hi Rich,

Here are a few more images to digest, including one of the waq-waq motifs.

You correctly note that each selvage cord has more than one warp; looks like two, to me. Along the side edges of the pile, I didn't really notice anything out of the ordinary, structurally.

The knotting is symmetrical at all locations; no switching at the edges. And I find no evidence of offset knotting either; the weaver opted for high resolution instead, so all the curves are non-offset knots.

Looking between the knots, the weft tensions do not look intentionally variable. There is a little warp depression, but it appears to be almost random and not particularly strong. It shouldn't be too variable along a single knot line, yet, it is. The somewhat puckered look you also correctly note, seems to be more from tying knots tightly, to very tightly, but somewhat variable long a line.

The handle is floppy and the rug is heavier than you might expect given the thickness
















Regards
Chuck
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Old January 19th, 2018, 04:50 AM   #29
Rich Larkin
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Hi Chuck,

Nice pics. I would be an absolute churl to suggest they weren't enough, so I'm not going to do it. Instaed, this question: given the character of the selvage cords, why does the selvage look like a single (overcast) cord in the images of the surface of the complete rug? Am I misreading those images?

Regarding rugs with 'curls' that will not flatten out, I have read that it occured when horizontal looms staked onto the ground were taken up with the rug unfinished when the tribe needed to move, then restaked at another location. Another random point is that I used to see late Turkoman-esque rugs in the possession of Afghanis on their way to Mecca for the Hajj. They were thin, leathery, and extremely tightly woven. Those wouldn't lie flat either.

Rich
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Old January 19th, 2018, 05:14 PM   #30
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Hi Chuck,

As I am sure you know, substantial flatwoven ends on pile rugs, such as the good-looking ones that are part of your vaq vaq piece, sometimes have the effect of shrinking the width of the rug at each end. One sees it on small Baluch type rugs, such as this one, which has sort of a barrel shape to its ‘footprint.’.


There is some dynamic at work there that I don’t quite understand. Marla could probably explain it. It doesn't occur on all Baluch with the flatwoven ends. I have a few with flat ends intact in which there is no hint of distorted ends. BTW, it isn't so obvious from the image, but the rug I posted above has very tightly wrapped, four cord selvages. I wouldn't think that similarity between our rugs in and of itself would be the controlling factor regarding distortion

A careful look at the full image of your rug seems to indicate that a similar phenomenon might be in play, as the corners show wrinkles caused by the pulling influence. The edges of your image are cutting off a little bit on each side, masking the true shape. I think rugs with all wool foundations are more prone to exhibit this result than ones woven on full or part cotton.

As a side note, see the ‘X’ shape of the border element in the upper right corner of the rug I posted above. Note also the faint white seam, slightly diagonal from vertical, that crosses the ‘X’ through the middle. Someone actually took some material out of the rug there and sewed it up, presumably in an attempt to relieve a crease or ripple. You can see by comparing the device in the center of the design with other ones on the rug that the bite taken out was considerable.

I don’t know how much these observations further the task of placing your rug confidently in a venue. I am not suggesting a ‘Baluch’ origin. But I think the resulting shape might well tend to be a feature of other products of the weaving group that produced your rug. In some sense, the phenomenon could be seen as a weaving defect, though it doesn't particularly bother me.

One last note on your rug. I see in the middle image (close shot of the corded selvages) that the lines of weft seem to be angling up into that corded section before they flatten out. Is that what is happening there?

Rich
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Old January 23rd, 2018, 05:34 AM   #31
Chuck Wagner
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Rich,

On the question in your prior post: Yes, you are misreading the images. Looking at my first image (the back, selvage, and kilim end) you can see that the width of one selvage cord is the same at the width of both nodes of a single knot, thus two warps, at least.

I think the "pinching" we see in the kilim ends is due largely to the absence of knot yarn in the kilim end. For rugs that don;t have meaningful warp depression, the knot yarn necessarily makes the pile part of the rug wider than the simple kilim ends. That, and some tension issues, cause puckering - I think.

I don't have as good an explanation for the irregular, uneven behavior in the pile section. The whole thing, lies flat other than the ends. But, there are micro-unflats all over the place. Go figure.

Getting back to the waq-vaq topic for a moment, an interesting but pretty worn Kirman rug sold over the weekend that had the following motif; obviously a dragon - far more obvious than what we usually see on vaq-vaq-like pieces such as mine - and maybe a message for design interpreters:



Regards
Chuck
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Old January 23rd, 2018, 05:43 AM   #32
Rich Larkin
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Chuck,

Quote:
Looking at my first image (the back, selvage, and kilim end) you can see that the width of one selvage cord is the same at the width of both nodes of a single knot, thus two warps, at least.
Right. But to my eye, it doesn't look like that in the photos of the rug from the pile side. Those make the edge look like a single cord overcast in red. Does the rug look that way in real life?

Rich
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Old January 23rd, 2018, 03:49 PM   #33
Chuck Wagner
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Hi Rich

An appreciation for dimensions is useful; the rug is 49 1/2 inches wide.

Here are a couple more from the front. Maybe I'll drag it along to the next rug fanatics meeting so you can see it live and in color.






Regards
Chuck
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Old January 23rd, 2018, 09:43 PM   #34
Rich Larkin
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Thanks for the images, Chuck, including the Kirman detail. If you read Edwards carefully, it is clear he thought the Kirmanis were far and away the rug weaving leaders in the first half of the 20th century. And I would much appreciate an up close and personal session with your interesting 49.5 incher at some convenient meeting opportunity.

Rich
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