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Go Back   Turkotek Discussion Forums > Salon 136: The Curious Question of Khamseh Kilims

Salon 136: The Curious Question of Khamseh Kilims by Patrick Weiler

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Old December 8th, 2014, 11:28 PM   #21
Egbert Vennema
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Hello guys. It took me some time find the courage to log in into this site. For years I read in the evening and night , the discussions and salons. And it kept me awake ,it was the good stuff. I am still a nitwit concearning rugs and carpets. Maybe I could contribute something to this discussion. Last week on an auction I bought this kilim. ( as being old..and from Ghashgai origine. I liked the composition, so I did the bidding. ) Somewhere in the back of my head I had this discussion. Sorry for the bad picture, it s evening here. But this piece of weaving is all slitweave. Could this contribute to the discussion ?

Egbert Vennema.





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Old December 9th, 2014, 02:16 AM   #22
Joel Greifinger
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Default Not a rigid frieze

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Darker warps and the multi-colored frieze tend to place it east of Qashqai work.
Pat,

In Persian Flatweaves, Tanavoli shows sixteen kilims that he confidently attributes as Qashqa'i. Of these, five have either dark warps or some combination of lighter and dark warps. Of the sixteen pieces, ten have some version of the "Qashqa'i frieze" as part of the end finish. Of these, nine have not just the blue/white but some other colored friezes (red/blue, red/yellow) as well.

This first one with mixed light and dark warps and both blue/white and yellow/red friezes he attributes as Kashkuli:



the next with mixed light and dark warps and red/blue in addition to the blue/white frieze he attributes to the Amaleh:



This one has ivory warps, but alternating colors in the finish and, design-wise, looks quite like some of those in question:



It's certainly possible that Tanavoli was going along with the existing tendency to make the default attribution of these Fars kilims to one or another of the Qashqa'i tribes. However, it doesn't provide much confidence in those particular features (dark warps and/or multi-colored friezes) as ways of differentiating Khamseh from Qashqa'i kilims.

Here's another of personal acquaintance. I've thought of it as Qashqa'i, despite the darker warps. Is there good reason to entertain an alternative attribution?



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Old December 9th, 2014, 02:30 AM   #23
Steve Price
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Hi All

The images have been added to Egbert's post.

Steve Pricd
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Old December 9th, 2014, 05:23 PM   #24
Egbert Vennema
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Here some additional foto s taken by daylight, I hope it brings something to the discussion. Regards Egbert.



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Old December 10th, 2014, 08:38 PM   #25
Patrick Weiler
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Egbert,

Is your name pronounced with the G like Roger?

Nice kilim. Slit weave tapestry of that size would generally be called Qashqai. I am curious about the appearance of what looks like dovetailed or double-interlocking construction where the border is attached to the field. That may be an indicator of "other than Qashqai" manufacture.
I might be inclined to consider Luri as the source for that reason, but when making up (inventing? speculating? fabricating?) the criteria for differentiating between Qashqai and other sources, round pegs in square holes such as a mixture of tecnhiques, end friezes, wool color and quality could help in the effort. We call dovetailed kilims, which look like what has always been called Qashqai, Luri. The major border of your piece is often seen in Luri work and the frieze is not the typical Qashqai version, but the warps are a bit lighter than I might expect for Luri work - but it isn't clear if there are darker warps in your piece. The colors are not typical Qashqai either, with that dark green seeming out of place, but the outer border at the bottom looks like a more Qashqai light green/mustard color. Maybe the Qashqai, Lurs and Khamseh all shopped at the same fabric store back in the day.
Joel, all the kilims you posted have the identical version of the reciprocal border. The last two I might be inclined to call Shiraz, a term that now seems to fall into the same nebulous category as NW Persian.

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Old December 11th, 2014, 01:50 AM   #26
Joel Greifinger
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The last two I might be inclined to call Shiraz, a term that now seems to fall into the same nebulous category as NW Persian.


Pat,

Would it really be progress to assign the "nebulous" and generic term, 'Shiraz' to this kilim that Tanavoli seemed to have reason to attribute as "Qashqa'i, Kashkuli" in Persian Flatweaves (p. 190, pl. 149)?

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Old December 12th, 2014, 01:25 PM   #27
Egbert Vennema
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Hi,Patrick, it s a soft "g " as in" Chondzoresk," but most Americans pronounce it as " Eggbert " also no problem. Concearning the edge\side of the kilim, give me a day or so, it s pouring cat s and dogs over here , so I can make some better foto s ( hope a better close-up , cheap camera ! ) of the weaving. Regards, Egbert.
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Old December 14th, 2014, 07:31 PM   #28
Chuck Wagner
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Hi all,

Warp material aside I think the whole thing works well as Qashqai - the borders and end designs are certainly consistent with other pieces I've seen as well as a couple in Hull & Luczyc-Wyhowska. And while a couple knowledgeable authors use dark vs. light warp as a discriminating feature, I'm not so sure it would stand up to the realities of materials availability. More a guideline than an actual rule.... arrrr.

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Old December 30th, 2014, 08:25 PM   #29
Patrick Weiler
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Default If not Qashqai, what?

Perhaps this thread should be Kilims Called Qashqai. There are a heck of a lot more of those than ones labeled Khamseh.
Here is one which is on the market as Qashqai. The colors, especially the light blue, green and the light orange, seem different for a Qashqai. The warps appear to be a mix of light, with sections of darker, wool - often a Khamseh attribute:

It is in slit weave, which is a more Qashqai trait than their neighboring Luri. If we were to generalize, (what a concept!) a Luri weaving would be more likely shared-warp. If it isn't Qashqai, the construction could more probably nudge it into the Khamseh range.
Here is another rug, also on the market, labeled SW Persian.

It has a Qashqai appearance, with the major gul and typical frieze.

But the frieze is multi-colored, the reciprocal border is quite similar to the kilim above, and the S cartouche border is quite Khamseh in appearance.
These kinds of similarities, vague as they are, could allow us to separate pieces into more discrete groups than simply Qashqai or the fall-back Shiraz category.
And another "Qashqai" kilim on the market. This one has the shorter, more square shape which some Basseri Khamseh kilims are said to have. It doesn't have the Qasiqai frieze, but does have dark gray warps.

The reciprocal medachyl border, S-shaped rows and tuning-forks could give it less Qashqai cachet and more Khamseh confidence.
A few weeks of poring over bushels of kilim images hasn't produced a smoking gun of evidence one way or another. The issue of whether or not many Qashqai kilims are actually Khamseh may, in fact, be a study of "If not Qashqai, what?".

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Old December 31st, 2014, 06:44 PM   #30
Patrick Weiler
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Default Dazzling

Mr. Tanavoli wrote a book. Well, he wrote lots of them, but the one on Persian Flatweaves includes a couple of Varamin Eye Dazzler kilims. It also has 18 Qashqai kilims but only a single Khamseh kilim.
Here is an eye dazzler, not from the book, attributed to Varamin.



Close up, it appears that the field is slit-weave tapestry:



The outer reciprocal-medachyl border is seen in Qashqai, but also Khamseh and Luri work:



The ends have a few rows of a rectangular S or Z shape. The warp appears like mixed black and gray goat hair.
This piece could be Khamseh, but Tanavoli conveniently does not differentiate this piece from the two Varamin eye dazzlers, nor from the neighboring Qashqai kilims. I will post some pictures from the Tanavoli book for comparison.

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Old December 31st, 2014, 07:37 PM   #31
Patrick Weiler
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Default The View from Varamin

Here are the two kilims from the Parviz Tanavoli book Persian Flatweaves which are Varamin eye-dazzlers:



The first one uses "inclined slit tapestry weave", which is also known as eccentric weft. The weft yarns actually bend in order to produce curved designs.
Tanavoli notes that: "The weavers of Varamin have often used eye-dazzling designs, executed in every imaginable configuration, sometimes with borders and sometimes without." The first of these two he suggests is by Turkish speaking tribes, but the other he does not comment on except to say it is also slit tapestry weave. Only one of the Varamin kilims in the Tanavoli book has extended ends like the piece in the previous post #30, and it appears to be constructed of plain weave with rows of complementary weft - unlike the slit-weave ends of post 30.

This is the single Khamseh kilim, with the Post #30 piece below for comparison:




One difference between the Varamin versions and the Khamseh is the use of that trademark Varamin Orange, which is more of a golden yellow in the Khamseh piece and the post #30 piece. The Khamseh piece does use inclined slit tapestry weave, but has the tuning-fork border similar to the S/Z border of post #30. Neither Varamin piece has borders, but both the Khamseh and Post #30 do. It would be more likely, in my estimation, that the Tanavoli Khamseh and Post #30 are from south of Varamin. Tanavoli posits that his Khamseh piece is Baharlu tribe, a Turkish-speaking group.

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Old February 18th, 2015, 12:30 AM   #32
Patrick Weiler
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Default Close up view

I have finally been able to get a closer view of the kilim from post 30.



The warp is either goat or horse hair, not sheep wool.



Tanavoli discussed weaving materials, but did not mention Varamins as having goat or horse hair warps or wefts. Few of the pieces in his Varamin book have dark warps and none appear this dark. We know Qashqai weavers are fond of white warps, so darker warps can be an indicator of Khamseh construction. Are there any other indicators in this piece that may help determine where it may have been made, or not made?
It is all slit tapestry, leaving Luri out of the running. And the coloration does not include the typical oranges of Varamin pieces. The dark green and medium blues seem more Khamseh and less Qashqai. Here is an eye dazzler kilim called Qashqai, on the market. It has the complementary-weft Qashqai frieze in blue and white, but also in light blue and red. The size and shape, along with mixed warp colors, could tip it in a Khamseh direction.



And another on the market labeled Varamin. Note the orange color often found in Varamin work, and the ends have the typical Varamin complementary-weft row and some soumak in white.



At this point, the similarities are strong between Varamin and Khamseh kilims, and not enough is known about construction details, colors, size, shape and handle to really be conclusive about these eye-dazzler kilims. And we may never know.

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Old March 3rd, 2015, 04:41 AM   #33
Patrick Weiler
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Here is another piece, on the market and described as South Persian, that would usually be described as Qashqai. Once again, the mixed color dark warps, the large size at 278x158cm-9'x5', mixed color complementary-weft borders and darker coloration all nudge the origin in a Khamseh direction.



Another feature which may be discernible in the close-up is a mixture of shared-warp/dovetail-warp and slit-weave construction in the colored designs within the white-ground "field". A Qashqai kilim would be more likely entirely slit-weave construction



This design is not shown as a border in the Peter Stone lexicon from Khamseh, Luri, Qashqai or Afshar weavings.
One other interesting feature not readily evident unless you look at a close-up is that this kilim appears to have a very dark weft. It could be goat hair, similar to the prior posted kilim attributed to Varamin.
Comprehensive research into differentiating the kilims of SW Persia is sorely lacking and may not be possible even if the opportunity to study them in Iran were available. Many of these striking pieces came to the market anonymously, and any link to their origins was lost before they got there.

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