Welcome to TurkoTek's Discussion Forums

Archived Salons and Selected Discussions can be accessed by clicking on those words, or you can return to the Turkotek Home Page. Our forums are easy to use, and you are welcome to read and post messages without registering. However, registration will enable a number of features that make the software more flexible and convenient for you, and you need not provide any information except your name (which is required even if you post without being registered). Please use your full name. We do not permit posting anonymously or under a pseudonym, ad hominem remarks, commercial promotion, comments bearing on the value of any item currently on the market or on the reputation of any seller. Odd structural feature - Turkotek Discussion Forums


Go Back   Turkotek Discussion Forums > Virtual Show and Tell

Virtual Show and Tell Just what the title says it is.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old April 6th, 2019, 06:45 PM   #1
Rich Larkin
Members
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 136
Default Odd structural feature

Hi Folks,

I have been sitting on this post for a month, having sent the images to Steve that long ago. I meant it to be a footnote to John Carpenter's thread about his small Tekkes. I had posted an image there of a detail from my Chub Bash jollar fragment; to wit (somehow, strangely, about 90% of this item has survived in two frags):

Procrastination and the press of other matters delayed my posting of these images below, and I was going to skip it (Sorry, Steve...), but a few recent posts have brought up the perennial issue of the single-wefted 'Hamadan' weave, so I am jumping back in.

In examining the back of my jollar, which I have owned for at least 35 years, I noted (for the first time) an unusual phenomenon. The piece is actually double-wefted; that is, there are two shots of weft (in two distinct sheds) between each row of knots. However, when the back is viewed from any appreciable distance, it displays a distinctive 'salt-and-pepper' appearance, a look I have always considered diagnostic of the single-wefted, or 'Hamadan' weave. Here for reference is a view of the back of what I consider to be a somewhat rustic single-wefted Hamadan khorjin, probably from a rural village, showing that 'salt-and-pepper' look:

The 'salt' of the case is the visible node of one white (usually cotton) warp being thrust into view by the single weft running beneath it. Its partner warp is covered by the same single weft in that shed. In the next weft row, the visible warp is covered and the covered one is visible; and so on, alternately, back and forth through the weaving (evidently suggesting evenly sprinkled salt to those with imagination). The look is especially clear in this Hamadan because the covering weft is dark wool.

Coming back to the Chub Bash, looking at the back, we note especially in the areas of darker backgrounds, the 'salt and pepper' look. (In fact, in the white areas, the same effect is seen, but reversed like a photographic negative. This is because the second weft of the two between knot rows is dark, in contrast to the white [or ecru] of the other. 'Pepper and salt'....?)



The two separate wefts in separate sheds between each row of knots in the jollar should produce an alignment of the dots of exposed white warps in a straight vertical line in the Chub Bash, not alternating left-right as seen in the Hamadan, because the use of the second weft should bring the exposed node of warp back in line with the one exposed in the line below it. But this is not the case. The reason is that the weaver alternated the positions of the white weft vs. the dark weft from row to row. That is, in one weft row, the light weft is in first, and the dark one next; but in the ensuing row, it is dark first and light next. It can be seen below.

I am not a weaver, but I can not think of any good reason for the weaver to have done this. For one thing, she had to keep track of the sequence as she went, rather than rely on one routine repeated uniformly without thought. Perhaps someone with chops, such as Marla, will set me straight on this point. Maybe there is a natural functional advantage to grabbing these wefts in an alternating sequence as the weaving goes. Otherwise, the only purpose I can think of would be to produce that particular appearance of the weave pattern on the back. And I do not recall having seen the same effect in other double-wefted weavings where the two wefts are different colors.

Anyway, I have gone into this extravaganza (kudos to those who have gotten through it ) in order to allay any harm I might have committed to the assessment skills of beginner enthusiasts by saying that seeing the 'salt and pepper' look of the weave on the back of a rug is a quick and sure fire way to diagnose single-weft construction, thus narrowing the possibilities considerably, and probably making the Hamadan area the prime contender.

Rich
Rich Larkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 9th, 2019, 10:15 PM   #2
Phil Bell
Members
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Manchester UK
Posts: 11
Default

Rich,

I wonder if the wefts were threaded from either side. That is the white from the left to right and then the brown right to left. Then a row of knots added and the the weaver then works the weft again from left to right but this time the colours have swapped, and so on. When I repair i get stuck in patterns for no apparent reason other than habit. I wonder if that could be a simple explanation?

I got the Hamadan wrong but you taught me something about Sarabs I didnt know. The one thing I have learnt is that when I see the 'salt and pepper' description I know without looking at the post heading that it is you writing. I am still learning to identify rugs but I have gained some expertise in identifying ruggies.

Phil
Phil Bell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 9th, 2019, 11:16 PM   #3
Chuck Wagner
Members
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 86
Default

Rich,

Your last image looks like a scan; would you mind cropping the lower right quarter from the original and making it bigger so we can see the detail better ?

Regards
Chuck
Chuck Wagner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 10th, 2019, 02:23 AM   #4
Rich Larkin
Members
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 136
Default

Hi Chuck,

It isn't a scan, but here is the corner.



Phil,

I figured there might have been some aspect of the weaving that invited this swapping of position by the wefts from row to row, without necessarily involving any intention to create the resulting effect. I don't recall having seen it in any other rug. Of course, alternating weft color for each weft line in a double-wefted rug is not that common anyway; but I am sure I have encountered it once in a while, and the order of the colors stayed consistent...I think....

Rich
Rich Larkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 10th, 2019, 01:05 PM   #5
Paul McGhee
Members
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Cambridge England
Posts: 10
Default

Rich,

As an occasional weaver, I think Phil's suggestion sounds right. If the weaver always shot the weft from the same side first, the colors would always alternate.

Paul
Paul McGhee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 10th, 2019, 01:16 PM   #6
Rich Larkin
Members
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 136
Default

Quote:
If the weaver always shot the weft from the same side first, the colors would always alternate.
Ahah! Thanks, Paul, and Phil!
Rich Larkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 13th, 2019, 02:50 PM   #7
Chuck Wagner
Members
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 86
Default

Rich,

That really is an unusual feature; we have a lot of Turkoman items and none have that appearance - nor do any of our other pieces.

If my eyes aren't fooling me, I think I do see a few spots on yours where the warps are exposed as well, adding to the confusion.

Sorry for the delayed reply, lately we're been preoccupied with (sadly) non-rug-related stuff.

Regards
Chuck

Last edited by Chuck Wagner; April 14th, 2019 at 12:24 PM.
Chuck Wagner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 14th, 2019, 01:27 AM   #8
Joy Richards
Members
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 46
Default Had to smile

From Phil:

"I am still learning to identify rugs but I have gained some expertise in identifying ruggies."


Love it!

Joy
Joy Richards is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2019, 05:53 PM   #9
Marla Mallett
Members
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6
Default

Since Rich asked that I comment on this unusual structural feature, I’ll give it a try.

There is absolutely NO benefit for either the process or the structure when two wefts are alternated as shown in this weaving. It slows down rather than speeds up the process. It actually produces a somewhat weakened structure at the selvages. When a weft yarn always enters the same shed, the weaver must make an adjustment at the edge—either looping the yarn around a warp or interlocking with the other colored weft. Thus it makes extra bulk at the selvage as well as a weak area in the rug.

Weavers occasionally try new structural/technical ideas, rather than using the standard traditional methods. Sometimes they are successful and sometimes not. The obvious disadvantages and extra work involved with this particular alternating two-colored weft idea would have become clear rather quickly and thus this process abandoned. If weft yarns with different characteristics were used—one thick and heavy, the other light and flexible—to produce a severely depressed structure, this practice would make sense, otherwise it does not.

Marla
Marla Mallett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 18th, 2019, 01:40 AM   #10
Rich Larkin
Members
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 136
Default

Hi Marla,

Thanks for chiming in. So, if I understand your comments, the effect of the wefts alternating their relative positions from one row to the next is not the normal situation and requires some contrivance by the weaver. Also, if I poke around the one selvage that survived, possibly with a magnifying glass, I should get some insight into what she was doing. That is if I can see it well enough. Old age is a bummer for eyesight, too.

Rich
Rich Larkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.