Welcome to TurkoTek's Discussion Forums

Archived Salons and Selected Discussions can be accessed by clicking on those words, or you can return to the Turkotek Home Page. Our forums are easy to use, and you are welcome to read and post messages without registering. However, registration will enable a number of features that make the software more flexible and convenient for you, and you need not provide any information except your name (which is required even if you post without being registered). Please use your full name. We do not permit posting anonymously or under a pseudonym, ad hominem remarks, commercial promotion, comments bearing on the value of any item currently on the market or on the reputation of any seller. Khamseh runner? - Turkotek Discussion Forums


Go Back   Turkotek Discussion Forums > Virtual Show and Tell

Virtual Show and Tell Just what the title says it is.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old August 4th, 2018, 07:10 PM   #1
Phil Bell
Members
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Manchester UK
Posts: 24
Default Khamseh runner?

Yesterday was my birthday and a perfect excuse to go rug hunting and add another piece to my 'home for distressed rugs' collection.
There is very little left out there that interests me but I managed to find this runner which I have sort of fallen in love with in the last 24 hours. Love at first sight almost.

It is wool warp and weft, with natural warps, some ivory some brown. There are two wefts between each row of knots, mostly red but also dyed brown.
10x9 kpi and a slightly stiffer feel than my Qashqai rug and Luri baface which I also show here. I can almost shout bingo! in the south persian rug collection as I have an afshar salt bag (not shown here but previously aired).
It has wrinkled somewhat due to tensions in the weave, this has caused some wear on the folds. The warps are slightly depressed and the knots asymmetric open to the left.
I find the information on construction slightly baffling but the design seems to point to Khamseh, with the banding and border design similiar to some in James Opie tribal rugs.
I was suspicious of the brigher red but I now believe all the colours to be good, by which I mean not synthetic (bad). That is I guess a matter of opinion.
The palette is very rich and the rug is altogether different to my Qashqai piece, this is why I need to buy more rugs I tell myself. There is nothing like handling pieces, looking at pictures does not reveal very much at all and I have spent many years doing that without learning very much.

I would be interested on opinions but please be gentle with me as I have fallen in love after all and I am sitting here intoxicated with its beauty.











Phil Bell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 4th, 2018, 07:33 PM   #2
Rich Larkin
Members
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 169
Default

Hi Phil,

Happy Birthday, and you won't get any heartache from me. I love that rug. I tend to stay away from the finer points of South Persian tribal rug provenance, as I find the categories elusive, but I think many would agree it is one of the Khamseh groups (who, remember, were on their own until the latter part of the 19th century).

Quote:
"That is I guess a matter of opinion." (i. e., whether a dye is synthetic or natural)
Well, it is until the lab test comes back. However, what I see on the screen looks OK to me; you might say, so far, so good. I like the whole palette, including the blues. (Is the field color deep blue or black?) The images make clear the wool is lovely. Everything to spruce up somebody's birthday!

Rich

Last edited by Rich Larkin; August 4th, 2018 at 09:09 PM.
Rich Larkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 4th, 2018, 08:02 PM   #3
Phil Bell
Members
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Manchester UK
Posts: 24
Default

Rich,

Yes the wool quality is better than my Qashqai and many others I have and the rug shines in the sunlight. The field is a deep blue, it has two shades of blue, green and red. The light green being one I have never seen before and it sets off the deep red border background which meanders from cherry to almost aubergine, that's a long journey in the colour world.

This rug is making me poetic.

Phil
Phil Bell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 4th, 2018, 08:21 PM   #4
Rich Larkin
Members
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 169
Default

Quote:
This rug is making me poetic.
Go for it! I know the feeling.

After fifty years of chasing rugs in an amateurish way, I am still impressed by the richness of what rustic weavers left pretty much to their own skills and devices managed to come up with.
Rich Larkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 4th, 2018, 08:53 PM   #5
Joel Greifinger
Members
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 52
Default Shout "Bingo"

Quote:
I can almost shout bingo!
Hi Phil,
That's a very cool rug. I particularly like the creative drawing of the major border. If anyone were to ask me (and I don't see why they would), I would call it Khamseh, too. So, go ahead, shout "Bingo!"

Joel Greifinger
Joel Greifinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 4th, 2018, 09:06 PM   #6
Steve Price
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 104
Default

Hi All

I just added a photo of the whole rug to Phil's post. It didn't display because of a typographical error I made when I sent him the file names.

Steve Price
Steve Price is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 4th, 2018, 09:14 PM   #7
Rich Larkin
Members
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 169
Default

Hi Phil,

Another neat feature is the little side insets between the string of medallions made up of parallel 'vertical' stripes. One can find whole fields made up of those stripes, but I don't recall having seen them used this way as 'excerpts' from the traditional paradigm pattern.

Rich
Rich Larkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 4th, 2018, 09:18 PM   #8
Phil Bell
Members
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Manchester UK
Posts: 24
Default

Thanks Steve,

I like that photo a lot.

I am not quite ready to shout Bingo, I probably need a Bakhtiari for the set and maybe a few I dont know about. I am sure someone could list them and depress me.
I will have to work out how I keep my rugs now. I have officially run out of floor space and I think it might become a little oppressive to have them hung on walls everywhere. I need a plan, storage, rotation and maybe lend them to my children when they all get their own places. I have given a couple away that didnt quite pass all of my criteria. I might post a picture of an Armenian rug I gave to a friend accompanied by a long lecture on the appreciation of handmade rugs. That was the price they paid.

Phil
Phil Bell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 4th, 2018, 11:34 PM   #9
Steve Price
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 104
Default

Hi Phil

One way to tell how long a collector has been doing it is to look at the sizes of his most recent acquisitions. I had a brief fling with netsuke. You can display dozens of them on a small shelf. I didn't realize what I was getting into when I started on rugs.

Steve Price
Steve Price is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 5th, 2018, 09:00 AM   #10
Phil Bell
Members
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Manchester UK
Posts: 24
Default

Steve,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Price View Post

One way to tell how long a collector has been doing it is to look at the sizes of his most recent acquisitions.

Steve Price
There is definitely a collector mentality, so far I have controlled it but I do find myself buying early 19thC hand painted cups and bowls, the cruder the better in my eyes. You can buy them for less than you might spend on a new mug as the market has very much crashed in that area. The rug market hasn't crashed so much as disappeared. For me that is probably a good thing as it slows down my ability to fill the house and empty my account.

Phil
Phil Bell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 5th, 2018, 03:14 PM   #11
Joel Greifinger
Members
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 52
Default

Quote:
I can almost shout bingo! in the south persian rug collection
I am not quite ready to shout Bingo, I probably need a Bakhtiari for the set
Phil,

I don't think you'll need a Bakhtiari for your South Persian "bingo". Both Bakhtiari tribal weaving and the village rugs that are marketed as Bakhtiari were woven around Chahar and Bakhtiari province in western Iran. Rugs from further south from Fars and Kerman provinces are the ones that generally get categorized as South Persian.

Don't get me wrong. I believe that you should begin working on your West Persian collection as soon as possible, including not just tribal and village Bakhtiaris but at least one Luri from the Luristan region.

Joel
Joel Greifinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 5th, 2018, 04:36 PM   #12
Phil Bell
Members
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Manchester UK
Posts: 24
Default

Joel,

Thanks for setting me back on the right path again. I am still learning. I am not sure I have ever seen a Bakhtiari or a Luri from Luristan.

The sun is out here so I will make a cup of tea and take James Opie into the garden for a while.

Phil
Phil Bell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 6th, 2018, 11:48 AM   #13
Joy Richards
Members
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 56
Default Happy Belated Birthday Phil

You got yourself a little lovely there. It's a mystery why we love these things - if only our appreciation and admiration could be seen by those who created these works of art.

And hanging them on the walls is not oppressive at all!

On Danielle's thread, Patrick mentions:

"And international dealers sell on-line more quickly than a rug would sit in a pile in a retail store. The good, old rugs, bags and kilims still retain their ethnographic, artistic and tactile glory, but their value has declined the same as "old brown furniture", beanie babies and baseball cards.
Keep searching!"


surely gives us hope! I 'find' when I'm not looking, but the search is an unconscious ongoing treat.

Joy
Joy Richards is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.