Welcome to TurkoTek's Discussion Forums

Archived Salons and Selected Discussions can be accessed by clicking on those words, or you can return to the Turkotek Home Page. Our forums are easy to use, and you are welcome to read and post messages without registering. However, registration will enable a number of features that make the software more flexible and convenient for you, and you need not provide any information except your name (which is required even if you post without being registered). Please use your full name. We do not permit posting anonymously or under a pseudonym, ad hominem remarks, commercial promotion, comments bearing on the value of any item currently on the market or on the reputation of any seller. Ah guys I've just gone and done it again! - Turkotek Discussion Forums


Go Back   Turkotek Discussion Forums > Virtual Show and Tell

Virtual Show and Tell Just what the title says it is.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old July 23rd, 2018, 06:12 PM   #1
Gerry Gorman
Members
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Wicklow Ireland
Posts: 5
Default Ah guys I've just gone and done it again!

I spied with my little eye something beginning with I, well a semi antique Isfahan (I think). In very good order. Some fading to the red but still has held its colours nicely. Dimensions are 2 metres by 1.33 metres (6 and a half feet by just under 4 and a half feet). I reckon a good clean would bring the colours back a bit. Any comments are welcome as always. Rgds Gerry





Gerry Gorman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 25th, 2018, 04:08 PM   #2
Rich Larkin
Members
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 169
Default

Hi Gerry,

I would call that 'Isfahan.' Rugs from that area (the city and nearby villages) have had a somewhat different chronological profile over the years as compared with other urban Persian venues. Most places can be described as having had a recognizable product that evolved...one might say degenerated, unfortunately...over time. In Isfahan, however, from time to time, the rug weavers there made what seem like deliberate decisions, collectively, to 'change their spots', so to speak, as to what they would aim to produce.

For one thing, according to authorities, the production of rugs there in significant volume did not commence until about 1920, though before that point there seems to have been a low level indigenous tradition of weaving fairly fine, rather fancy rugs based on floral designs. Around 1920, that production increased to important market levels, with the typical example being finer in weave than the example you have. About 1930, apparently in response to market forces and economic conditions, the place shifted to a coarser rug, and I would think your rug came from that period. Production dropped during the war, and after it, Isfahan again ramped up the program, ultimately settling on the modern Isfahan product, which is among the finest available. Isfahan rugs produced in the second half of the 20th century and afterwards feature knot counts of 400 to 600 knots per square inch and higher.

Regarding your rug, which is pleasant and cheerful, the knot density is relatively low. I am not sure whether this is more a function of its age, or a function of the typical practice of the particular village in which it was woven.

Rich
Rich Larkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 26th, 2018, 01:40 PM   #3
Chuck Wagner
Members
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 74
Default

Hi Gerry,

What color are the wefts ? It's tough to judge in the current imagery.

The borders and execution of the field design make me a bit suspicious of an Isfahan attribution, but some more info would be helpful - particularly the style of knot used. I can't tell from the pictures whether the rug is woven so tightly that it cannot be folded along a weft line for a good view.

Regards
Chuck
Chuck Wagner is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 26th, 2018, 09:34 PM   #4
Rich Larkin
Members
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 169
Default

Hi Chuck,

Your suspicious approach is well-considered. What is your thought on it? Sultanabad?

Rich
Rich Larkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 28th, 2018, 06:51 AM   #5
Gerry Gorman
Members
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Wicklow Ireland
Posts: 5
Default

The wefts are white and the knot is persian. tks
Gerry Gorman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 29th, 2018, 06:33 PM   #6
Chuck Wagner
Members
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 74
Default

Hi Rich, Gerry,

I'm still digging through references that I haven't looked at in a long time (Aschenbrenner's book, etc.) - and still looking for one that I consider reliable for city and more formal village rugs.

Sultanabad (the older term for Sarouks from the Arak area) isn't a bad starting guess; my other candidates are all over the map right now. Ferehen, Yazd, Semnan...

What got me thinking about it is the minor floral border, which doesn't seem to have a traditional flower and vine execution - and - the palette - and - the less graceful execution of the curvilinear motif, which I would not expect on an Esfahan rug.

Cheers,
Chuck
Chuck Wagner is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 30th, 2018, 04:03 AM   #7
Rich Larkin
Members
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 169
Default

Hi Chuck,

I think Sultanabad is the most likely candidate. The single rosette border on both sides of the main border looks a bit different. One notion I had was, could it be a take off on Sultanabad work from another country? Note that the ground color of the single rosette border (above) seems to have faded at the tips. It is a shade of blue from the back, but gray on the front. I would not expect that on a Sultanabad rug of this general type. Also, the back looks slightly helter skelter for Sultanabad work.

Gerry, I was not in tune with the program when I went along with Isfahan. There was a coarser grade of Isfahan in the market before the ultra-fine stuff they have produced in the last fifty or sixty years, but I do not believe your rug is an example of it. It is a long time since I have handled any of it, and my recollection is hazy, but I think your rug is from elsewhere.

Rich

Rich
Rich Larkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 30th, 2018, 02:46 PM   #8
Rich Larkin
Members
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 169
Default

Hi Gerry,

Can you post an image of the back at about the same scale as your third one, but with a ruler in the shot?

Rich
Rich Larkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 30th, 2018, 04:33 PM   #9
Chuck Wagner
Members
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 74
Default

Hi,

Because of two features I see on Gerry's rug, there is another possibility - which is: a wool Qom rug.

Here are two images of one that we own. From the images that Gerry has posted so far, the back on his doesn't look as well ordered as Qom pieces usually are. And the weave doesn't look as tight as I would expect.

But another image may alter that perception.

Anyway, the selvage and end finish on his rug have a lot in common with this one:





Regards
Chuck
Chuck Wagner is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 30th, 2018, 07:15 PM   #10
Rich Larkin
Members
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 169
Default

Hi Chuck,

Not being argumentative here, just playing the devil's advocate. I think Qum is unlikely for the reasons you noted:
Quote:
From the images that Gerry has posted so far, the back on his doesn't look as well ordered as Qom pieces usually are. And the weave doesn't look as tight as I would expect.
Qum only began to produce rugs in commercial quantities in about the thirties, I believe, and the earlier ones tend to be quite varied in design and texture, but I can't fit Gerry's rug into any of the niches with which I am familiar. There are some elements of Qum practice that would fit, such as the sharply defined minor borders flanking the main border, and the practice of making the decorative line separating the red field from the blue corners loop over itself. But for the most part, Qum rugs settled into a state of being extremely even and regular in weave early in their career.

I just don't see this one in the mix.

Rich
Rich Larkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 31st, 2018, 02:03 AM   #11
Rich Larkin
Members
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 169
Default

Another thing about the older Qums (I was looking at them with a purpose in the mid-60s) is that (notwithstanding your rug, Chuck) I don't think they produced a lot of rugs during that time that were predominantly red. Predominantly off-white rugs with a lot of mid to light colors was what I recall.

Rich
Rich Larkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.