Welcome to TurkoTek's Discussion Forums

Archived Salons and Selected Discussions can be accessed by clicking on those words, or you can return to the Turkotek Home Page. Our forums are easy to use, and you are welcome to read and post messages without registering. However, registration will enable a number of features that make the software more flexible and convenient for you, and you need not provide any information except your name (which is required even if you post without being registered). Please use your full name. We do not permit posting anonymously or under a pseudonym, ad hominem remarks, commercial promotion, comments bearing on the value of any item currently on the market or on the reputation of any seller. Hand woven or................? - Turkotek Discussion Forums


Go Back   Turkotek Discussion Forums > Virtual Show and Tell

Virtual Show and Tell Just what the title says it is.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old November 1st, 2017, 04:13 PM   #1
Kay Dee
Registered
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 71
Default Hand woven or................?

Gents, a friend just bought this and was told it was "hand woven, either Chinese or Tibetan"

It is one of the largest, if not the largest saddle carpet I have ever come across. Approx dimensions 170cm long x 90cm widest point x 70cm at center / narrowest point.

Now, a nice rug at first glance, but................. .......check the weave.

What do you think, i.e. how it was made, that is 'hand wooven'?

I dunno, something just doesn't 'look' right, but just color me skeptical if you like .









Kay Dee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2017, 07:12 PM   #2
Rich Larkin
Members
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 108
Default

Hi Kay,

I am looking at the wrong monitor at the moment, but it looks hand woven to me, notwithstanding that there do seem to be anomalies. I hope to get a better grip on it later in the day. Meanwhile, are you able to get a nice clear pic of the pile side with one row of knots separated from the neighboring row by being folded back on the axis of the wefts, so that the knot collars (if any!) are visible?

Are there any elephants left in Mongolia or Tibet?

Rich
Rich Larkin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 2nd, 2017, 11:41 AM   #3
Kay Dee
Registered
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 71
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Larkin View Post
Meanwhile, are you able to get a nice clear pic of the pile side with one row of knots separated from the neighboring row by being folded back on the axis of the wefts, so that the knot collars (if any!) are visible?
Thanks for the input Rich.

Will try to do that photo maybe later today or at worst tomorrow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Larkin View Post
Are there any elephants left in Mongolia or Tibet?
Where there any there to begin with 'cept Woolly Mammoths maybe? But yeah, if no any elephants current, this thing would fit a damn big yak!

Last edited by Kay Dee; November 2nd, 2017 at 12:07 PM.
Kay Dee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 2nd, 2017, 01:13 PM   #4
Marvin Amstey
Members
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Fairport, NY
Posts: 26
Default

'morning Kay
To me. it is hand woven with typical Tibetan knots. It is less than 25 years old and probably made in Nepal. A "big" gimmick for the tourist or export trade.
BTW, good photos ! Rich's suggestion would nail down my assumption.
Marvin Amstey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 2nd, 2017, 01:49 PM   #5
Rich Larkin
Members
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 108
Default

Hi Kay,

Yes, hand made. The 'anomalies' I suggested are accounted for by the Tibetan weave, per Marvin's comments.

Rich
Rich Larkin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 3rd, 2017, 06:26 AM   #6
Kay Dee
Registered
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 71
Default Example #3

Top 'Khotan'

Centre Tiger saddle

Bottom 'Khotan'


Top 'Khotan', Centre Tiger saddle, Bottom 'Khotan'

Note, just because I have inserted it here in between two so-called / supposed 'Khotans' does not mean to say I think it is a 'Khotan', but there are IMO some similarities in the weave. Whatever, IMO it just ain't Tibetan.

Last edited by Kay Dee; November 3rd, 2017 at 09:38 AM.
Kay Dee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3rd, 2017, 06:28 AM   #7
Kay Dee
Registered
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 71
Default Example #2

Top made in Nepal Tibetan weave 2013

Middle Tibet c1920's

Bottom Tibet c1900


Made in Nepal Tibetan weave BACK 2013


Tibet c1920's


Tibet c1900

Last edited by Kay Dee; November 3rd, 2017 at 07:30 AM.
Kay Dee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3rd, 2017, 06:42 AM   #8
Kay Dee
Registered
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 71
Default Example #1

Rich, as requested, what I think you meant re folding carpet to photograph knots. Unfortunately my camera took yesterday to play up and not focus properly! Literally after each shot had to turn camera off and back on to get next shot to even remotely focus.

Anyway gents, thanks for all the input.

That being said, and with all due respect, I wholeheartedly disagree that the Tiger saddle is Tibetan or a made in Nepal Tibetan. IMO this tiger saddle is not Tibetan weave.

See below and next two posts (Example 2 and Example 3) for weave / back comparisons.

Over to you.

Top 2 images Tiger saddle pile folded.

3rd Image is comparison of 3 carpet backs;
Top Tiger Saddle knots back
Centre Tibet c1900 knots back
Bottom Chinese 19c knots back

4th image folded pile of Tibetan saddle carpet c1920's


Tiger saddle pile folded


Tiger saddle pile folded


Top Tiger Saddle knots back
Centre Tibet c1900 knots back
Bottom Chinese 19c knots back


Tibetan saddle carpet c1920 pile folded

Last edited by Kay Dee; November 3rd, 2017 at 07:33 AM.
Kay Dee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3rd, 2017, 04:26 PM   #9
Rich Larkin
Members
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 108
Default

Hi Kay,

On the run at the moment, but great pics. Too good, in fact, as they are so well lit, it is difficult in all places to distinguish the knot collars from the projecting pile.

More on those issues later, but for the moment, does the piece show moth damage? That sometimes manifests itself on the backs of rugs by the minimization or outright disappearance of knot nodes. I think I see some voids on the back that could be evidence of moth.

Rich
Rich Larkin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 3rd, 2017, 05:40 PM   #10
Kay Dee
Registered
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 71
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Larkin View Post
.........but great pics. Too good, in fact, as they are so well lit, it is difficult in all places to distinguish......... .....
Yeah go on, rub it in. Don't I know it!!!

Teaches me to take the easy way out and use the onboard flash and not take a 'proper' offboard one along. Will get some better ones next week as owner away for a few daze now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Larkin View Post
More on those issues later, but for the moment, does the piece show moth damage?
No, none. Although I didn't go over back with fine tooth comb. But I think you'll see the similarities in a couple of the examples so not moth damage IMO.
Kay Dee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3rd, 2017, 10:38 PM   #11
Marvin Amstey
Members
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Fairport, NY
Posts: 26
Default

Hi Kay,
As per Rich, there is nothing that I see that changes my opinion.....yet.
Marvin
Marvin Amstey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3rd, 2017, 11:02 PM   #12
Kay Dee
Registered
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 71
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin Amstey View Post
Hi Kay,
As per Rich, there is nothing that I see that changes my opinion.....yet.
Marvin

Marvin, no offense meant but................. .you will have to go a long way to convince me.

This is simply not a Tibetan weave.

Please show my another example that can be shown to have that weave and be a genuine Tibetan. In 45 years of collecting / selling Tibetans and 'western' Chinese I have never seen this weave in a genuine Tibetan, whether woven in Tibet or Nepal.

But there IS always a first time for everything I'll admit.

I'll try to get better exposed shots of the fold next week.
Kay Dee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 4th, 2017, 02:28 PM   #13
Marvin Amstey
Members
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Fairport, NY
Posts: 26
Default

No offense taken, Kay
I simply don't have the piece in hand to know for sure. In the meantime, here are two Tibetan saddles for your pleasure:





Best
Marvin

Last edited by Marvin Amstey; November 4th, 2017 at 07:28 PM.
Marvin Amstey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 5th, 2017, 08:17 AM   #14
Kay Dee
Registered
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 71
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin Amstey View Post
I simply don't have the piece in hand to know for sure. In the meantime, here are two Tibetan saddles for your pleasure:
And VERY pleasureable they both are Marvin, especially the lower one! Besides a somewhat 'rare' shape, and other things, what looks to be a beautiful shade of green centre.

Also, the roundels in both, especially the top one, look rather unique.
Kay Dee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 6th, 2017, 10:28 PM   #15
Marla Mallett
Members
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 14
Default

Kay,

Would you please tell us what specific structural features you use to differentiate Tibetan and non-Tibetan knotting? These distinctive features can be easily identified when you have a weaving in hand, but they are extremely difficult or impossible to display in photos.

Marla Mallett
Marla Mallett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2017, 10:19 AM   #16
Kay Dee
Registered
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 71
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marla Mallett View Post
Kay,

Would you please tell us what specific structural features you use to differentiate Tibetan and non-Tibetan knotting? These distinctive features can be easily identified when you have a weaving in hand, but they are extremely difficult or impossible to display in photos.

Marla Mallett
Marla, with all due respect to both your vast knowledge, experience and expertise, given how our last 'conversation' developed and ended I would prefer not to 'converse' with you again, no offense meant to you or others here. Sorry about that.

However let me say to others, in my experience having dealt almost exclusively with Tibetan and central and western Chinese rugs since 1971, and having lived in Kathmandu (in a Tibetan 'area') for the better part of 10 years long long ago, it is far from "extremely difficult or impossible to display in photos" to differentiate a close up pic of the back of Tibetan rug from, say, a close up pic of the back of a 'Chinese' rug. So holding said rug in your hand will make no difference whatsoever. Again, with ALL due respect to ALL the experts here.

But of course, that's just in my 46 years of experience of photographing, handling and dealing in said area rugs, so my opinion may mean little or nothing to others, and so be it, each to their own.


Last edited by Kay Dee; November 7th, 2017 at 10:35 AM.
Kay Dee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2017, 05:33 PM   #17
Marla Mallett
Members
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 14
Default

Hello Turkotekers,

Since Kay wishes to avoid any talk of structures in Tibetan rugs, I must say that proximity to the rugs over a period of years is not the same as being willing to observe and analyze their structures closely. TIBETAN KNOTTING IS ONE OF THE MOST DISTINCTIVE STRUCTURES IN THE TEXTILE/RUG WORLD , and a close look at any of those pieces that one has in hand makes a correct POSITIVE IDENTIFICATION absolutely certain. NO guesswork is required.

1. The most distinguishing feature of Tibetan knotting is that each knot interlaces with four warps instead of two—and the knots overlap. Tufts from two different knots emerge together from between alternate pairs of warps. One can probe the weaving with a needle to discern the presence of this feature, but it is nearly impossible to display in a photo.

2. Since more than one yarn is normally used as the working unit in Tibetan knotting, it is possible to observe a difference between the number of yarns appearing on the front-side knot collars and the nodules on the back of the piece. I.e. if three yarns are used together for the knotting unit, there would be three yarns visible in each front-side nodule, but six yarns in each of the back-side nodules. If the working unit consists of two yarns, there will be two visible in the front nodules, and four in each of the back nodules. There are twice as many on the back because the knots overlap on the back side. In other words, each warp is crossed just once on the front by the working unit, but is crossed twice on the back.

3. Because four warps are used with each knot, color changes along a vertical direction must be handled with a separate, different kind of knot on just two of the warps if the design edge is to be sharp. Otherwise, a ragged design edge occurs. This is ONE feature that can sometimes be identified in photos. This Tibetan knotting irregularity indeed does occur in the subject piece on this thread—the “Tiger” saddle rug. This is the feature that Marvin and Rich presumably noticed in coming to their correct conclusions about the origins of the rug.

Since these features occur only with Tibetan knotting, their presence positively confirms that the piece was constructed with Tibetan knotting. Again: No guess-work is necessary.

I have noted these structural features because I believe it is necessary that on the Turkotek board we NOT let misinformation stand uncorrected. I believe most Turkotek participants are serious about the subject and want the integrity of this board maintained. I remind you all that the person who began this thread started by asking for information on how the particular piece “was made” and indeed even asked for opinions on whether or not it was “handmade.”

Marla

PS. The frequent “anomalies” in Chinese rugs are entirely different from those in Tibetan knotting. Both must be observed very closely to be of use in making attributions.
Marla Mallett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2017, 05:44 PM   #18
Kay Dee
Registered
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 71
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marla Mallett View Post
Hello Turkotekers,

Since Kay wishes to avoid any talk of structures in Tibetan rugs,
No Marla, I specifically said I wanted no discussion / talk with you, as I found you condescending in the extreme (to me) in our last 'discussion'.

And given all your vast knowledge, may I humbly suggest you stick to what you know best, which obviously isn't ID'ing Tibetan rug structure from photos of the back of the rug, yes that's right, the back (as no guesswork is required when it comes to true Tibetan woven rugs), as opposed to having to have one 'in the hand' as you seem to suggest is so necessary.

That's all I have to say on the matter, respectfully, M'am .

EDIT; Well, just one more thing, if you please, so their can be no misconception among readers re 'mistaken identity' or that I am not aware of whom I am addressing. That is I am well aware who you are Marla, I have your book (two copies actually) and recommend it to all and sundry, so its not like I think your no expert in your field. I just think / know your just dead wrong re ID'ing Tibetan carpets from photos of the back, repeat back, unlike not being that way for many other carpets from different regions / origin (save for most / 'Chinese' that is).

Last edited by Kay Dee; November 7th, 2017 at 06:34 PM. Reason: Clarification
Kay Dee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2017, 06:30 PM   #19
Marla Mallett
Members
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 14
Default

Ms. Kay Dee,

My comments above were addressed to the dozens of serious individuals who participate in this open public forum, since you showed no interest in the unique features of Tibetan structures.

Marla Mallett
Marla Mallett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2017, 07:02 PM   #20
Steve Price
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 75
Default

Kay

I don't want to get entangled in this, but as a general principle, if you don't want to engage in conversation with someone, don't. Announcing it while directing remarks at him/her isn't the way to do it.

Steve Price
Steve Price is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.