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Old May 19th, 2016, 08:20 PM   #1
Charon Lefleur
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Default Fragments of the Ardabil Carpet

I know that the largest piece of the Ardabil Carpet is in England and a smaller piece is in California but I read that there are smaller fragments floating about. Does anyone know if these smaller fragments have ever been discovered? Are they in museums or private collections?
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Old May 20th, 2016, 02:34 PM   #2
Chuck Wagner
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Hi

There are two Ardabil carpets, they are a pair, intact and not fragments. One is in the Victoria and Albert Museum in London and one in the Los Angeles County Museum of Art.

There are some images in an archived discussion here: http://www.turkotek.com/salon_00117/...?s=&forumid=75

The official V&A web page is here: https://www.vam.ac.uk/articles/the-ardabil-carpet

Regards
Chuck WAgner
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Old May 20th, 2016, 07:04 PM   #3
Charon Lefleur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Wagner View Post
Hi

There are two Ardabil carpets, they are a pair, intact and not fragments. One is in the Victoria and Albert Museum in London and one in the Los Angeles County Museum of Art.

There are some images in an archived discussion here: http://www.turkotek.com/salon_00117/...?s=&forumid=75

The official V&A web page is here: https://www.vam.ac.uk/articles/the-ardabil-carpet

Regards
Chuck WAgner
Thanks, Chuck! I had read somewhere (though I'm having trouble finding the article now) that there were fragments of the same carpet in circulation. Is that just a myth? Thanks again for your quick response!
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Old May 20th, 2016, 11:01 PM   #4
Joel Greifinger
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Default Fragments

Quote:
I had read somewhere (though I'm having trouble finding the article now) that there were fragments of the same carpet in circulation.
The Museum of Fine Arts in Boston appears to own one:

http://www.mfa.org/collections/objec...l-carpet-73454

Joel Greifinger
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Old May 21st, 2016, 03:59 AM   #5
Lloyd Kannenberg
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The Getty Museum published a booklet, The Ardabil Carpets (Malibu 1974) by Rexford Stead, that answers some questions about these magnificent artifacts. The Getty Ardabil was cannibalized to complete the V&A example, but there are probably fragments still “out there”. According to Mr. Stead, about 1972 one such was offered to the Los Angeles County Museum of Art by Mr. Eric Binns of Surrey; it was an inheritance from his father, who obtained it in Tabriz (no date given). I’m pretty sure copies of the booklet, if not the Ardabils themselves, are still available at a reasonable price.

Lloyd Kannenberg
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Old May 21st, 2016, 04:09 AM   #6
Chuck Wagner
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Hi LLoyd,

Actually, it's available online: http://www.getty.edu/publications/vi...892360151.html

Cheers ,
Chuck Wagner
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Old May 23rd, 2016, 06:57 PM   #7
Charon Lefleur
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Thank you so much, all of you! Reading the online pamphlet now. Very much appreciated!
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Old May 27th, 2016, 03:21 AM   #8
Patrick Weiler
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Default Been there, done that

Way back in 2001 I was in London and took a time out from the schedule to walk about a mile over to the V&A to see the Ardabil there. It was an impressive sight, being so large. About 25 years ago I visited LACMA and asked about their Ardabil, though the museum workers seemed not to know that it was in their collection. Finally, a couple of years ago they were displaying it, so I got a chance to see that one in person
also. It seems that "Other fragments have appeared on the market from time to time. The knot density is actually higher on the Los Angeles carpet."
I haven't heard of any fragments on the market, but I am sure that when they do appear, they are probably quite expensive.
Patrick Weiler
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Old March 6th, 2018, 02:49 PM   #9
alainb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charon Lefleur View Post
I know that the largest piece of the Ardabil Carpet is in England and a smaller piece is in California but I read that there are smaller fragments floating about. Does anyone know if these smaller fragments have ever been discovered? Are they in museums or private collections?
I own one small fragment
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Old March 11th, 2018, 08:51 AM   #10
Martin Andersen
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Fascinating story with the two Ardabil carpets, I have always had the felling they may have cannibalized the wrong one of the pair (of course the cannibalism in itself was wrong, but it was done in a time different from ours).
Davids Collection in Copenhagen have a fragment http://www.davidmus.dk/en/collection...ds/art/25-2008
Best Martin
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Old March 11th, 2018, 09:17 AM   #11
Martin Andersen
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(and would of course be terrible terrible curious to see a photo of your fragment Alainb )
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Old March 11th, 2018, 04:00 PM   #12
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I don't know how to send the image.
In 1966 I was in London for the first time. I met Mr. Galindos who was a far relative. He was very old. He told me that in his youth he was na active carpet dealer. One of his employees was an old armenian who participated to the restauration of the Arbabil carpet. He gave me the small fragment. Very fine on silk fondation.
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Old March 11th, 2018, 10:27 PM   #13
alainb
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Default small fragment Arbebil carpet

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Originally Posted by Martin Andersen View Post
(and would of course be terrible terrible curious to see a photo of your fragment Alainb )
I repeat the message I sent this morning.
I don't know how to send the images through this fórum.
The first time I went to London in 1966 I met a far relative named Mr. Galindos. He was very old. He told me that when he was na active carpet dealer in his youth one of his emplyees was na old armenian man who participated to the restauration of the Ardabil carpet. He gave me the small fragmente.
It is very fine on silk fondation

Regards
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Old March 11th, 2018, 10:35 PM   #14
Steve Price
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Hi

If you send the image files to me (sprice@vcu.edu) attached to e-mail, I'll take care of them and send you instructions on how to post them. While you're doing that, please include your full name so I can change your user name to your full name. We don't permit pseudonyms in posts.

Steve Price
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Old March 12th, 2018, 11:38 AM   #15
Alain Bueno
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Default Ardebil fragment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Andersen View Post
(and would of course be terrible terrible curious to see a photo of your fragment Alainb )
These are the images of my small Ardebil fragment :



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Old March 12th, 2018, 08:39 PM   #16
Ken Shum
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I believe the carpet in LACMA was finer of the two, so these other fragments you mentioned could not have come from either carpet. Unless, the one or both were repaired with patches from a third carpet sometime before the current two were merged early in the 20th Century.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Weiler View Post
Way back in 2001 I was in London and took a time out from the schedule to walk about a mile over to the V&A to see the Ardabil there. It was an impressive sight, being so large. About 25 years ago I visited LACMA and asked about their Ardabil, though the museum workers seemed not to know that it was in their collection. Finally, a couple of years ago they were displaying it, so I got a chance to see that one in person
also. It seems that "Other fragments have appeared on the market from time to time. The knot density is actually higher on the Los Angeles carpet."
I haven't heard of any fragments on the market, but I am sure that when they do appear, they are probably quite expensive.
Patrick Weiler
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Old March 13th, 2018, 03:48 PM   #17
Martin Andersen
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Here what Rexford Stead writes about the cannibalization of the Los Angeles carpet, done prior to the V&A acquirement of their carpet:

Aside from removal of the outer borders and a section of lower field on the Los Angeles Ardabil, which has diminished its overall size….
….Writings on the Los Angeles carpet often mention that the borders were sacrificed, presumably about 1890 or 1891, to accommodate repairs on the great "intact" version that hangs proudly in the Victoria and Albert. The first edition of the Handbook of the Los Angeles County Museum of Art mentions only the loss of the outer borders, and this derives from a statement in the museum filesfrom a Mr. E. Fowles at Duveen Brothers. Would that just this were true.
A comparison of the pair confirms that the Los Angeles carpet suffered more grievously (fig. 15). Not only were all borders beyond the inner cloud-band guard border removed, but also a substantial section of the lower field, accounting for the imbalance of the central medallion and its appendages within the field, and the absence of radiating ogees within the corners at the truncated end. Given such mutilation, it is perhaps little wonder that more than a decade went its way before existence of the Los Angeles pendant was revealed.
The missing Los Angeles borders are known to us only through the London-carpet.


And thanks Alain Bueno, what a beautiful little fragment Almost kind of like a reliquia.

Best
Martin
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Old March 13th, 2018, 03:59 PM   #18
Martin Andersen
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And Alain, I suppose you know but a simple knot count could determine if your fragment is from the Los Angeles or the V&A carpet

380-420 per square inch - Los Angeles
297-324 per square inch - V&A

best Martin

Last edited by Martin Andersen; March 13th, 2018 at 04:13 PM.
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Old March 14th, 2018, 11:41 AM   #19
Alain Bueno
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Default Ardebil fragment

Thank you for your information

Best regards
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