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-   -   Hand woven or................? (http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=4380)

Kay Dee November 1st, 2017 04:13 PM

Hand woven or................?
 
Gents, a friend just bought this and was told it was "hand woven, either Chinese or Tibetan"

It is one of the largest, if not the largest saddle carpet I have ever come across. Approx dimensions 170cm long x 90cm widest point x 70cm at center / narrowest point.

Now, a nice rug at first glance, but................. .......check the weave.

What do you think, i.e. how it was made, that is 'hand wooven'?

I dunno, something just doesn't 'look' right, but just color me skeptical if you like .:angelic:

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/923/PSQ1Da.jpg

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/924/jdtD85.jpg

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/924/zYbsMK.jpg

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/924/d4ldeF.jpg

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/923/bc6acF.jpg

Rich Larkin November 1st, 2017 07:12 PM

Hi Kay,

I am looking at the wrong monitor at the moment, but it looks hand woven to me, notwithstanding that there do seem to be anomalies. I hope to get a better grip on it later in the day. Meanwhile, are you able to get a nice clear pic of the pile side with one row of knots separated from the neighboring row by being folded back on the axis of the wefts, so that the knot collars (if any!) are visible?

Are there any elephants left in Mongolia or Tibet?

Rich

Kay Dee November 2nd, 2017 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Larkin (Post 23341)
Meanwhile, are you able to get a nice clear pic of the pile side with one row of knots separated from the neighboring row by being folded back on the axis of the wefts, so that the knot collars (if any!) are visible?

Thanks for the input Rich.

Will try to do that photo maybe later today or at worst tomorrow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Larkin (Post 23341)
Are there any elephants left in Mongolia or Tibet?

Where there any there to begin with 'cept Woolly Mammoths maybe? But yeah, if no any elephants current, this thing would fit a damn big yak!

Marvin Amstey November 2nd, 2017 01:13 PM

'morning Kay
To me. it is hand woven with typical Tibetan knots. It is less than 25 years old and probably made in Nepal. A "big" gimmick for the tourist or export trade.
BTW, good photos ! Rich's suggestion would nail down my assumption.

Rich Larkin November 2nd, 2017 01:49 PM

Hi Kay,

Yes, hand made. The 'anomalies' I suggested are accounted for by the Tibetan weave, per Marvin's comments.

Rich

Kay Dee November 3rd, 2017 06:26 AM

Example #3
 
Top 'Khotan'

Centre Tiger saddle

Bottom 'Khotan'

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/923/ctW5OY.jpg
Top 'Khotan', Centre Tiger saddle, Bottom 'Khotan'

Note, just because I have inserted it here in between two so-called / supposed 'Khotans' does not mean to say I think it is a 'Khotan', but there are IMO some similarities in the weave. Whatever, IMO it just ain't Tibetan.

Kay Dee November 3rd, 2017 06:28 AM

Example #2
 
Top made in Nepal Tibetan weave 2013

Middle Tibet c1920's

Bottom Tibet c1900

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/922/XFml14.jpg
Made in Nepal Tibetan weave BACK 2013

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/924/ROXqKj.jpg
Tibet c1920's

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/923/aU6Zon.jpg
Tibet c1900

Kay Dee November 3rd, 2017 06:42 AM

Example #1
 
Rich, as requested, what I think you meant re folding carpet to photograph knots. Unfortunately my camera took yesterday to play up and not focus properly! Literally after each shot had to turn camera off and back on to get next shot to even remotely focus.

Anyway gents, thanks for all the input.

That being said, and with all due respect, I wholeheartedly disagree that the Tiger saddle is Tibetan or a made in Nepal Tibetan. IMO this tiger saddle is not Tibetan weave. :dancer:

See below and next two posts (Example 2 and Example 3) for weave / back comparisons.

Over to you. :angelic:

Top 2 images Tiger saddle pile folded.

3rd Image is comparison of 3 carpet backs;
Top Tiger Saddle knots back
Centre Tibet c1900 knots back
Bottom Chinese 19c knots back

4th image folded pile of Tibetan saddle carpet c1920's

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/924/5HmzIb.jpg
Tiger saddle pile folded

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/924/9IlhTj.jpg
Tiger saddle pile folded

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/922/KoUQdW.jpg
Top Tiger Saddle knots back
Centre Tibet c1900 knots back
Bottom Chinese 19c knots back

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/924/pds9Gi.jpg
Tibetan saddle carpet c1920 pile folded

Rich Larkin November 3rd, 2017 04:26 PM

Hi Kay,

On the run at the moment, but great pics. Too good, in fact, as they are so well lit, it is difficult in all places to distinguish the knot collars from the projecting pile.

More on those issues later, but for the moment, does the piece show moth damage? That sometimes manifests itself on the backs of rugs by the minimization or outright disappearance of knot nodes. I think I see some voids on the back that could be evidence of moth.

Rich

Kay Dee November 3rd, 2017 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Larkin (Post 23362)
.........but great pics. Too good, in fact, as they are so well lit, it is difficult in all places to distinguish......... .....

Yeah go on, rub it in. Don't I know it!!! :nerd2:

Teaches me to take the easy way out and use the onboard flash and not take a 'proper' offboard one along. Will get some better ones next week as owner away for a few daze now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Larkin (Post 23362)
More on those issues later, but for the moment, does the piece show moth damage?

No, none. Although I didn't go over back with fine tooth comb. But I think you'll see the similarities in a couple of the examples so not moth damage IMO.

Marvin Amstey November 3rd, 2017 10:38 PM

Hi Kay,
As per Rich, there is nothing that I see that changes my opinion.....yet.
Marvin

Kay Dee November 3rd, 2017 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvin Amstey (Post 23366)
Hi Kay,
As per Rich, there is nothing that I see that changes my opinion.....yet.
Marvin


Marvin, no offense meant but................. .you will have to go a long way to convince me.

This is simply not a Tibetan weave.:duel:

Please show my another example that can be shown to have that weave and be a genuine Tibetan. In 45 years of collecting / selling Tibetans and 'western' Chinese I have never seen this weave in a genuine Tibetan, whether woven in Tibet or Nepal.:rant:

But there IS always a first time for everything I'll admit. :angelic:

I'll try to get better exposed shots of the fold next week. :wizard:

Marvin Amstey November 4th, 2017 02:28 PM

No offense taken, Kay
I simply don't have the piece in hand to know for sure. In the meantime, here are two Tibetan saddles for your pleasure:

https://s6.postimg.org/y2oybud0h/Tibetan_saddle2.jpg

https://s6.postimg.org/d4e6gfpox/tibetan_saddle.jpg

Best
Marvin

Kay Dee November 5th, 2017 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvin Amstey (Post 23377)
I simply don't have the piece in hand to know for sure. In the meantime, here are two Tibetan saddles for your pleasure:

And VERY pleasureable they both are Marvin, especially the lower one! Besides a somewhat 'rare' shape, and other things, what looks to be a beautiful shade of green centre.:cheers:

Also, the roundels in both, especially the top one, look rather unique.

Marla Mallett November 6th, 2017 10:28 PM

Kay,

Would you please tell us what specific structural features you use to differentiate Tibetan and non-Tibetan knotting? These distinctive features can be easily identified when you have a weaving in hand, but they are extremely difficult or impossible to display in photos.

Marla Mallett

Kay Dee November 7th, 2017 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marla Mallett (Post 23414)
Kay,

Would you please tell us what specific structural features you use to differentiate Tibetan and non-Tibetan knotting? These distinctive features can be easily identified when you have a weaving in hand, but they are extremely difficult or impossible to display in photos.

Marla Mallett

Marla, with all due respect to both your vast knowledge, experience and expertise, given how our last 'conversation' developed and ended I would prefer not to 'converse' with you again, no offense meant to you or others here. Sorry about that.

However let me say to others, in my experience having dealt almost exclusively with Tibetan and central and western Chinese rugs since 1971, and having lived in Kathmandu (in a Tibetan 'area') for the better part of 10 years long long ago, it is far from "extremely difficult or impossible to display in photos" to differentiate a close up pic of the back of Tibetan rug from, say, a close up pic of the back of a 'Chinese' rug. So holding said rug in your hand will make no difference whatsoever. Again, with ALL due respect to ALL the experts here.

But of course, that's just in my 46 years of experience of photographing, handling and dealing in said area rugs, so my opinion may mean little or nothing to others, and so be it, each to their own.

:groucho: :felix: :sherlock:

Marla Mallett November 7th, 2017 05:33 PM

Hello Turkotekers,

Since Kay wishes to avoid any talk of structures in Tibetan rugs, I must say that proximity to the rugs over a period of years is not the same as being willing to observe and analyze their structures closely. TIBETAN KNOTTING IS ONE OF THE MOST DISTINCTIVE STRUCTURES IN THE TEXTILE/RUG WORLD , and a close look at any of those pieces that one has in hand makes a correct POSITIVE IDENTIFICATION absolutely certain. NO guesswork is required.

1. The most distinguishing feature of Tibetan knotting is that each knot interlaces with four warps instead of two—and the knots overlap. Tufts from two different knots emerge together from between alternate pairs of warps. One can probe the weaving with a needle to discern the presence of this feature, but it is nearly impossible to display in a photo.

2. Since more than one yarn is normally used as the working unit in Tibetan knotting, it is possible to observe a difference between the number of yarns appearing on the front-side knot collars and the nodules on the back of the piece. I.e. if three yarns are used together for the knotting unit, there would be three yarns visible in each front-side nodule, but six yarns in each of the back-side nodules. If the working unit consists of two yarns, there will be two visible in the front nodules, and four in each of the back nodules. There are twice as many on the back because the knots overlap on the back side. In other words, each warp is crossed just once on the front by the working unit, but is crossed twice on the back.

3. Because four warps are used with each knot, color changes along a vertical direction must be handled with a separate, different kind of knot on just two of the warps if the design edge is to be sharp. Otherwise, a ragged design edge occurs. This is ONE feature that can sometimes be identified in photos. This Tibetan knotting irregularity indeed does occur in the subject piece on this thread—the “Tiger” saddle rug. This is the feature that Marvin and Rich presumably noticed in coming to their correct conclusions about the origins of the rug.

Since these features occur only with Tibetan knotting, their presence positively confirms that the piece was constructed with Tibetan knotting. Again: No guess-work is necessary.

I have noted these structural features because I believe it is necessary that on the Turkotek board we NOT let misinformation stand uncorrected. I believe most Turkotek participants are serious about the subject and want the integrity of this board maintained. I remind you all that the person who began this thread started by asking for information on how the particular piece “was made” and indeed even asked for opinions on whether or not it was “handmade.”

Marla

PS. The frequent “anomalies” in Chinese rugs are entirely different from those in Tibetan knotting. Both must be observed very closely to be of use in making attributions.

Kay Dee November 7th, 2017 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marla Mallett (Post 23422)
Hello Turkotekers,

Since Kay wishes to avoid any talk of structures in Tibetan rugs,

No Marla, I specifically said I wanted no discussion / talk with you, as I found you condescending in the extreme (to me) in our last 'discussion'.

And given all your vast knowledge, may I humbly suggest you stick to what you know best, which obviously isn't ID'ing Tibetan rug structure from photos of the back of the rug, yes that's right, the back (as no guesswork is required when it comes to true Tibetan woven rugs), as opposed to having to have one 'in the hand' as you seem to suggest is so necessary.

That's all I have to say on the matter, respectfully, M'am .

EDIT; Well, just one more thing, if you please, so their can be no misconception among readers re 'mistaken identity' or that I am not aware of whom I am addressing. That is I am well aware who you are Marla, I have your book (two copies actually) and recommend it to all and sundry, so its not like I think your no expert in your field. I just think / know your just dead wrong re ID'ing Tibetan carpets from photos of the back, repeat back, unlike not being that way for many other carpets from different regions / origin (save for most / 'Chinese' that is).

Marla Mallett November 7th, 2017 06:30 PM

Ms. Kay Dee,

My comments above were addressed to the dozens of serious individuals who participate in this open public forum, since you showed no interest in the unique features of Tibetan structures.

Marla Mallett

Steve Price November 7th, 2017 07:02 PM

Kay

I don't want to get entangled in this, but as a general principle, if you don't want to engage in conversation with someone, don't. Announcing it while directing remarks at him/her isn't the way to do it.

Steve Price

Ken Shum November 7th, 2017 07:43 PM

All,

As a observer, it seems (to me at least) that Kay's intent not to enter into discussions with Marla only applied to the structure of Tibetan rugs with Marla and not "La-la-la I'm not speaking to you" in general.

Ken

Kay Dee November 9th, 2017 08:31 AM

Not Ms. but Mr. if you please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marla Mallett (Post 23425)
Ms. Kay Dee,

I wonder why people just assume Kay is a woman's name? :nerd2: :felix: :)

Steve Price November 9th, 2017 01:45 PM

Hi Kay

The short answer is that it's a pretty common woman's name and a very rare name for men.

Just a reminder: you said that don't want to engage in conversations with Marla, so please don't make comments to or about her.

Steve Price

Kay Dee November 9th, 2017 11:00 PM

Steve, my comment was to EVERYONE, just using Marla's address to me as an example; that is as much as you and others may assume that Kay is a woman's name, where I come from it is not, just as Robin / Robyn is not, as I have said before IIRC, re 'Kay' on this forum.

Anyway Steve, this is just getting all too silly, so if you are so on the horse that thinks I have it in for Marla just go ahead and ban me from your forum. Pity you couldn't have seen the same / been more objective / said the same to her when she was so rude to me some threads ago now.

But as Ned Kelly said "Such is life". Or as Nepali's say 'Khe ghani' i.e. 'what to do'.

If people cant handle or be made aware of the truth, or a direct point, then so be it.

Sorry about that but I stand 100% by ALL my posts.

Best rugs and goodbye, Mr Kay

PS. Let me add if I may, where I come from the word 'assume' (or simply assuming anything) translates to making an ass out of u and me. Again, goodby in advance, and it was enjoyable while it lasted. As we say at the beach "see you in the tube" (if you should be so lucky as to have a wave / tube nearby that is).

Chuck Wagner November 10th, 2017 12:12 AM

Kay,

You could have avoided this ridiculous unpleasantness by just answering the question instead of invoking an "appeal to authority" logical fallacy and then behaving badly. I've been looking at rugs for decades as well. That doesn't confer knowledge. It confers experience.

It's not unreasonable to ask what criteria someone uses to make a judgement.

You can ban yourself, Steve doesn't need to do it. Or, you could let bygones be bygones.

Your call; you have made many interesting posts but the unnecessary sidetracks reduce their appeal.

Chuck

Regards
Chuck

Rich Larkin November 10th, 2017 01:31 AM

Well said, Chuck.

Jeff Sun November 10th, 2017 04:15 AM

Wow. Looks like I picked an interesting time to check Turkotek

Interesting rug Kay! (interesting conversation, too!):angelic:

My thoughts are that this carpet is not Tibetan, it is Chinese, of some variety and made recently for purely decorative FLOOR purposes and has probably never seen the back of a horse. Even a really BIG horse.

Just my 2 cents.

Anyway, for some reason this has put me in the mood for some Niu Rou La Mian. I may have to duck into the city the weekend for a bowl of hand pulled noodles!

Also I hope it is not Goodbye, as I enjoy your Tibetan/Chinese rug posts and conversations very much.

Kay Dee November 13th, 2017 07:41 PM

Shame on me
 
OK, I’ll agree a stupid move on my part opting out / per-empting what appeared to be (and is on other forums) a ban for not towing the line, and being and FNG to boot. But……………………..that’s what it looked to me from where I was sitting and like where it seemed to be heading with what appears to me to be a general attitude here that “Marla (however much an expert in some areas she may be) can say no wrong / could not possibly be in error" attitude. But like I said earlier, I found her both condescending and insulting when I posted (in another thread) my position re “faded rugs / beauty is in the eye of the beholder”, so I figured what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. But I was wrong I see.

So, to be polite, in an impolite situation, I’ll answer / comment on some input since I ‘left’, from the most recent down to previous.

Jeff Sun> My thoughts are that this carpet is not Tibetan, it is Chinese, of some variety and made recently for purely decorative FLOOR purposes and has probably never seen the back of a horse. Even a really BIG horse.

Re underlined, EXACTLY! As anyone with ANY knowledge of Tibetan carpets should be able to see in a heartbeat / glance (of the back).

Jeff Sun> Just my 2 cents.

Nah, at least a dollar in this situation given your interest of rugs from said areas in question.
.
Chuck Wagner> You could have avoided this ridiculous unpleasantness by just answering the question instead of invoking an "appeal to authority" logical fallacy and then behaving badly. I've been looking at rugs for decades as well. That doesn't confer knowledge. It confers experience.

As someone wrongly noted before (Jeff maybe) that it was not personal, it is, that is I want nothing to do with answering ANY question or post by Marla, nor would I bother to intrude / participate in any of her threads (no loss there, I here shouted in the background) given her previous performance with regards my position / opinion re beauty is in the eye of the beholder and / or who is she to tell me what I should or should not like and why statement. Forgive yes, forget not!
.
Chuck Wagner>It's not unreasonable to ask what criteria someone uses to make a judgement.

The criteria of EXPERIENCE as you yourself said with that particulate type of rug. I have no interest really in the intricacies of how a jet engine works, just that it does, same really for most east of the Durand Line weaving's, as it is so so easy to tell the difference (just from the back) of the different types it is not even worth discussing, even though Marla can quote chapter and verse re how they are woven.

Chuck Wagner>You can ban yourself, Steve doesn't need to do it. Or, you could let bygones be bygones.

Yeah, like I said that was stupid of me, mea culpa, but I don’t expect any forgiveness as I stand 100% by what I have said prior to offering my resignation / 'spitting the dummy' (as they say in Oz) per se.

Chuck Wagner> Your call; you have made many interesting posts but the unnecessary sidetracks reduce their appeal.


Each to their own. I talk it like I walk it. But Chuck, you sidetrack's' comment seems to me to imply some sidetracks in more than just this thread. Care to elaborate or am I just readin' wrong?

Anyway, as Jeff (Sun) has said, that tiger ‘saddle’ in this discussion ain't Tibetan, has never seen a horse, was made for the floor and to sell at a high price (so called tiger rugs of all shapes and forms are in very high demand today) to some unsuspecting buyer.

Enough said, at least by me. Maybe we should just move on with me again admitting my stupidity in resigning prematurely. But that's Steve's (yours?) call I suspect re banning, and others re 'moving on'. :deadhorse:

Steve Price November 14th, 2017 12:13 AM

Hi Kay

Over the 19 years we're been on line, only four people have been banned, although three of them were banned more than once after their bans were lifted. It takes a lot more than me thinking someone is a jerk to get the person kicked off. On the other hand, your civility is close enough to the edge for me to have set the software to put your posts into a moderator queue for approval (or not, depending on the content).

I'm not interested in engaging you in a debate and, quite frankly, I wouldn't have you as a guest in my home. Speaking as a participant, If you opt out of Turkotek it would suit me just fine.

Steve Price

Jeff Sun November 14th, 2017 01:01 AM

Kay-

1. Don't leave.
2. If you leave, or if your don't, send me your email (not really sure how to do that here) but I have turned on the v-card. It seems we share much of the same interests.
3. Don't leave.

Also, I ended not getting Niu You La Mian, but I did go to Nom Wah for Dim Sum. On a cold November day with rain spitting from the sky, Nom Wah is tough to beat. I hope you have a similar retreat (treat?) down in Oz.

http://nomwah.com/chinatown/

-JS

Kay Dee November 15th, 2017 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Price (Post 23460)
I'm not interested in engaging you in a debate and, quite frankly, I wouldn't have you as a guest in my home. Speaking as a participant, If you opt out of Turkotek it would suit me just fine.
Steve Price

Hi Steve.

Point/s noted, taken on-board (as I hope some of mine have been).:felix:

As for now, although it seems you yourself would rather me not here, and it is your forum after all, I'll stay for now if its all the same to you(?), and see if I can moderate what to me is just my Ozzie bluntness, but that others can oft find 'offensive'. But with all due respect, and no offense meant, no promises there given my long ingrained writing / bluntly talking habits.

Oh and Jeff, first thanks for your 'support' as it were. However I no longer live in the land of Oz, so no shrimps on the barbie for me, but rather salmon steaks (cold and/or smoked) and moose burgers in my neck of the woods now. :) Oh an pardon my ignorance, but what is the V-Card? :confused:

Kay Dee November 19th, 2017 01:33 PM

Some more examples
 
Here are a few more examples, for anyone still so interested, to show the region the tiger saddle rug is most likely from (or a copy thereof) and what kind of weave / area it is not from for that matter, i.e. Tibetan / Tibet.

Only pic that is mine so to speak is the Tiger rug, so apologies for quality / 'shape', colour, etc, of others.

1 - Xinjiang/ Khotan area (Far western China)

2 - Tiger rug

3 = Xinjiang / Khotan area (far western China)

4 - Tibetan

5 - Tibetan

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/922/XORAVM.jpg

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/924/jfWvCc.jpg

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/924/R3n7Qx.jpg


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