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-   -   Great descriptive (but old) book! (http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=3980)

Kay Dee August 23rd, 2017 03:53 PM

Great descriptive (but old) book!
 
Realizing this book is probably old hat to you nomads of western Asia, but for someone like me from the east who has no interest whatsoever west of the Afghan/ Iran border (although I think I said elsewhere 'west of the Durand Line', but with an Afghan caveat), and while having a huge collection of Tibetan and Chinese rug books, have next to nothing, 'cept a few on Afghan rugs. Well not where I live now anyway. So thought I should have at least one, to offset my Tibet / Chink ones, and what a beauty!

Anyway this book, printed in 1984, and available cheaply on the web is; Rugs and Carpets from Central Asia (The Russian Collections) by Elena Tsareva. Lots of color pics, and while not up to the standard of today's digital reproductions, are certainly more than adequate / acceptable. And highly descriptive of type / construction, etc of each rug.

Anyway, just in case someone does not have it, I can highly recommend it.................. .................... .:wizard:

Lloyd Kannenberg August 24th, 2017 01:13 AM

Hi Kay Dee!

We should all follow your example and learn about rugdom beyond whatever narrow specializations we are stuck in. Which prompts the obvious question: Do you have recommendations of books on Chinese, Tibetan, Indian rugs that might enlighten us Western Barbarians? I have Bidder's book on Tarim Basin rugs and Eiland's "Chinese and Exotic Rugs", but really nothing on Ningxia or Gansu rugs, or Tibetan rugs, and only Gans-Ruedin on Indian rugs. Any suggestions would be welcome!

Cheers,

Lloyd Kannenberg

Steve Price August 24th, 2017 03:29 AM

Here's a link to a prolonged discussion of rug books that we held on Turkotek. It's nearly 20 years old now, so lots of new stuff isn't in it. But it has pretty good critical reviews of a lot of books suitable for beginners and advanced collectors.

Steve Price

Chuck Wagner August 24th, 2017 05:25 AM

Lloyd,

For starters on Tibetan rugs, try:

Tibetan Rugs. Kuloy, Hallvard Kare. Orchid Press
ISBN-10: 9748304078
ISBN-13: 978-9748304076

Regards
Chuck

Kay Dee August 24th, 2017 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lloyd Kannenberg (Post 22690)
Hi Kay Dee!

We should all follow your example and learn about rugdom beyond whatever narrow specializations we are stuck in. Which prompts the obvious question: Do you have recommendations of books on Chinese, Tibetan, Indian rugs that might enlighten us Western Barbarians? I have Bidder's book on Tarim Basin rugs and Eiland's "Chinese and Exotic Rugs", but really nothing on Ningxia or Gansu rugs, or Tibetan rugs, and only Gans-Ruedin on Indian rugs. Any suggestions would be welcome!

Cheers,

Lloyd Kannenberg

Lloyd,

I am just on way out, but your in luck, as probably thr three best books EVER òn primarily Tibetan, but one on mixed tib / mong / ning have been published in last few years. Simply magnificent.

When I get back in later today I'll post full details.

Re Chucks recomend, I have it and a good starter, but also suffers from less than ideal photo reproduction and somewhat basic info when conpared tothe latter three I allude too.

The ones I will advise of are simply STUNNING in every way, and completely up to date / the latest word on the subject as it were. Not all that cheap though but well well worth the cost!

EDIT: Got a few mins waiting on wife now (ha, ha) but at least here are the names.

Edit 2: Back from my sojourn. So, if I could only own three books on the subject these would now be the three (and I believe I have every book on Tibetan and or "Chinese' rugs ever printed in the English language. Oh, I have no interest in Indian rugs, so can't help there, sorry.)

Dragon and Horse by Dr. Koos De Jong (saddle carpets ONLY, from chin, mong, tib) Ten stars!

Published 2013, 191 glossy pages, crammed full of (mainly) small but the most magnificent (photos of) saddle rugs from the above countries that I have ever seen (and I have seen a lot since staring collecting / selling in 1971) Lots of details and IIRC at least some (all?) of the individual rugs construction details. De Jong is currently considered and expert on the subject in saddlerugdom. Out of print, (originally cost 90USd) now available sometimes for a little less, or for a lot lot more. Actually now available second hand from as little as 50USD! :dancer:

Sacred and Secular by Robert Piccus (Arguably the finest collection in the world today, of primarily tib rugs.) Ten stars!

Published 2011, 293 semi-glossy pages, full of 'two to a page format' exquisite rugs, with all details of all rugs pictured (i.e. when bought, where, and all construction details for each rug, or at least almost each rug IIRC) Cant recall price but at least between 75 and 100USD IIRC Actually now available second hand now from as little as 40USD! :dancer:

From the Land of the Snow Lion by Michael Buddeberg (tib rugs) Ten stars!

Published Dec, 2016, 340 semi-glossy pages, each chapter by various experts in the field. Full construction details (and then some, some of which are beyond my level of understanding, or should I say my necessary understanding, but always willing to learn something new). And for the first time almost ever for Tibetan rugs, many many pictures of a one inch square of the back side of the rug! Probably THE most descriptive construction techniques book EVER on Tibetan rugs (and there are more construction techniques illustrated than I ever knew / imagined about / of Tibetan rugs!). Again cant recall price but at least between 75 and 100USD IIRC. Probably 90% about rugs with, maybe 10 (15?) percent at back of book about Tibetan jewellery. Actually now available second hand from as little as 40USD! :dancer:

I've got many more up my long sleeve, but they will have to wait till I another post. Like I said, if I could only own three, these would be the three, and it would be hard to pick between the three, I simply couldn’t. Each is a masterpiece in its own right!

Opps gotta run, I'm in trouble now! (Pardon any spelling mistakes, no time to check without incurring wrath of the 'boss'!)

Kay Dee August 24th, 2017 04:10 PM

And for those truly adventurous, inquisitive collectors of art, in this instance rather obscure textile art, it would be remiss of me not to mention and highly recommend this book.

Thunder Dragon Textiles From Bhutan by Mark Bartholomew.
Pub. 1985, 125 pages, containing superb quality reproduced photos, glossy on the pages where the textiles are reproduced, English / Japanese text. (Printed in Japan, and the copy I have seemingly much more recently that the original in 1985, given the very high quality of the photo reproductions)

In this book are pieces from the, repeat THE best / finest collection of said textiles in the world. Period! A rather controversial collection I might add, but still the best.

A little background: I lived in Kathmandu during most of the 70’s / into the very early 80's. my interest carpets not textiles, when Mark visited KTM circa 76, IIRC. Mark had the $$, and got to know the right people 'in town' so he collected the very best / most pieces, many coming from the Royal Family of Bhutan.

Anyway long story made fairly short. Mark built up an enormous collection of the very best antique Bhutanese textiles, and many many years later the Royal Family (of Bhutan) wanted to buy some, repeat only some, back, as what he had, was far far better than what they now had. However, he would only sell his collection as a whole then (which he did / does still want a small - but now even bigger - fortune for) not individual pieces. But they only wanted individual pieces and he would not sell them like that. And as far as I am concerned, given they were collected fair and square, that was his prerogative.

Anyway, as far as I know, he still has the whole collection (or at least the majority of it, that is all the best pieces), and AFAIK will only sell what he has as a whole, and is in no hurry / in any need to do so, again as far as I know today from 'the grapevine'.

But because he would not sell certain individual pieces back to the Royal Family many people dislike him, and hence why I call it a controversial collection. But, without doubt, no ifs of buts, he has the very best collection of Bhutanese textiles in the world today, only which a small sample of is shown in the book. And even if you ‘only’ owned what is in this book, then you’d also hold one of the best collections too. So one can only imagine what his full collection must be like.

Anyway, I have no axe to grind on his behalf, as a matter fact I hardly knew him back then, circa 1978 when I last saw him, nor have had any contact with him since. But if you ask me, I side with his ‘stance’, that is he collected the pieces fair and square by buying them at the time and given that fact has the right now to say how he sells them, that is piece by piece, or as a whole. Anyway, that’s just my position and I’m sticking to it, what others think of him / his ‘ethics’ is up to them.

But the pieces in the book are simply stunning, if only a tiny peep into the arcane world of Bhutanese textiles!!!!!!!!

EDIT. Another book on the same subject (and a good collection no doubt, but no real comparison to the above), but does have more photos in it, and published in Thailand and suffers somewhat from, in some instances, poor reproduction of the photos is;
Traditional Bhutanese Textiles by Barbara S Adams (another old '70's Kathmandu local as it were)
Pub 1984, 154 pages, 'flattish' semi-glossy paper , i.e. semi-semi-glossy) small format book, approx 7" x 8".

Pierre Galafassi August 26th, 2017 11:27 AM

Hi guys,
A beautiful (and heavy ) book, in German, superbly illustrated and with focus on very old Chinese rugs (1400-1750) is:
Glanz der Himmelssöhne. Kaiserliche Teppiche aus China.
Published by the Museum für Ostasiatische Kunst, Köln.

regards
Pierre

Kay Dee August 26th, 2017 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre Galafassi (Post 22704)
Hi guys,
A beautiful (and heavy ) book, in German, superbly illustrated and with focus on very old Chinese rugs (1400-1750) is:
Glanz der Himmelssöhne. Kaiserliche Teppiche aus China.
Published by the Museum für Ostasiatische Kunst, Köln.
regards
Pierre


I could find only two for sale online Pierre, a second hand soft cover (see description below) for 107USD and one new hardcover for 330USD!!! (and for that price, and very surprising to me, you could buy all three later published hard cover rug books I mention plus the Bhutanese book, and still have plenty of change! See my following post. :dancer:

"Museum fur Ostasiatische Kunst / Textile And Art Publications, 2005. Softbound. As New. Color illustrated thick wraps. 227 pp., profusely illustrated in color. Text is in German, except for one essay and bilingual notes about the technical aspects of the individual rugs. A well-researched and assembled reference work. 68 rugs are featured and examined."

Kay Dee August 26th, 2017 01:42 PM

I was completely wrong re the price of the three hard cover rug books I recommended! :batman:

I bought two new and a third second for more than the are available nowadays. :banghead:

For instance; :thumbsup:

Dragon and Horse by Dr. Koos De Jong (saddle carpets ONLY, from chin, mong, tib) Ten stars!

Plenty available second hand, from 50 to 254USD

Sacred and Secular by Robert Piccus (Arguably the finest collection in the world today, of primarily tib rugs.) Ten stars!

Plenty available second hand, some from 40 to 50USD, and on up from there.

From the Land of the Snow Lion by Michael Buddeberg (tib rugs) Ten stars!

Plenty available second hand, some from 41 to 50USD, and on up from there.

:party:

Lloyd Kannenberg August 26th, 2017 05:45 PM

Hello Kay Dee and All!

In 2013 Koos de Jong gave our rug society a great presentation about his newly-published book. Why didn’t I buy a copy then? Well, it was pricey, and the second volume, a Chinese translation of the first, was beyond my competence. In time, I thought, the two volumes will become available separately at a better price. This is partly true; I have seen the second volume — but not the first — offered online at about half the original list price for both.

Robert Piccus’s Sacred and Secular seems like a better bet at the moment.

Bhutanese textiles are a little distant for me, but some years ago Diana Myers treated our rug society to a fascinating program on these remarkable weavings. So maybe Mark Barthomew’s book on his collection is worth a look, even if only for educational purposes!

For Chinese rugs I have ordered the Rippon Boswell catalogue of the Te-Chun Wang collection. And Glanz der Himmelssöhne is not cheap, but perhaps worth a go; the German text I think I could manage.

Meanwhile, here's the rug I'd like to learn about:


http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/khotan_copy.jpg

Surely it’s Chinese, but I thought a red cloth edging says “Tibet”. The books should help on this point and others (Is it OK? Is it a dog? From where in China? And so forth) Any comments would be gratefully received!

Lloyd Kannenberg

Kay Dee August 27th, 2017 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lloyd Kannenberg (Post 22708)
Hello Kay Dee and All!
In 2013 Koos de Jong gave our rug society a great presentation about his newly-published book. Why didn’t I buy a copy then? Well, it was pricey, and the second volume, a Chinese translation of the first, was beyond my competence. In time, I thought, the two volumes will become available separately at a better price.

Well first they are (available at a better price, see message below), or should I say one is at least. Recently (last year) I bought what you refer to as the '1st volume' as a present for a friend. And that is the one with English text and suburb, if somewhat small, photos. But I guarantee you it is the last word on Tib/Chin/Mong saddle rugs!!! And available.

And no, unless I am very mistaken, the '2nd volume' you mention is just the mirror image Chinese text of the English text in the '1st volume' but with no photos. It was originally sold as a two book set, published in HK if IIRC. And the much thinner Chinese versions was just so / for Chinese who couldn't read English, would still buy the book. So you are missing nothing at all in what you refer to as the '2nd volume', as the English text AND all the rug photos are in the so-called '1st' volume.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lloyd Kannenberg (Post 22708)
Robert Piccus’s Sacred and Secular seems like a better bet at the moment.

If I could only by one I might lean to 'From the Land of the Snow Lion' but the Piccus book has more and better rugs, but not necessarily better descriptions, IMO anyway. Like I said before, very hard to pick between all three I mentioned. And given the 'new' cheap prices I found, I'd be buying all three without hesitation. That is, at the risk of me :deadhorse:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lloyd Kannenberg (Post 22708)
Bhutanese textiles are a little distant for me, but some years ago Diana Myers treated our rug society to a fascinating program on these remarkable weavings. So maybe Mark Barthomew’s book on his collection is worth a look, even if only for educational purposes!

Yes, but not before I bought the three rug books.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lloyd Kannenberg (Post 22708)
For Chinese rugs I have ordered the Rippon Boswell catalogue of the Te-Chun Wang collection.

Well an 'old' book (pub. 1978), and again IMO, has nothing on the three I have mentioned (and no, I get no commission etc, for recommending them, nor do I even know the three authors personally). May I be so rude as to ask what you paid for it? Should be between 40-50USD at most, but the other books on his collections of 1) saddle rugs and 2) on Chinese dowry rugs seem to all start in the 95/100USD and up range. But again, somewhat (now) dated text-wise books. Beautiful rugs in all though!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lloyd Kannenberg (Post 22708)
And Glanz der Himmelssöhne is not cheap, but perhaps worth a go; the German text I think I could manage.

Not before the other books I mention. It is all in German, while the other three are ALL in English. And all so cheap now! And I cannot repeat enough times, THE latest words on the subjects you are interested in by acknowledged leaders in their field of expertise and extremely well written, (not just somebody showing his collection, however nice, as the Te-Chun Wang Collection book basically is, no offense meant to him.) :banghead:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lloyd Kannenberg (Post 22708)
Surely it’s Chinese, but I thought a red cloth edging says “Tibet”. The books should help on this point and others (Is it OK? Is it a dog? From where in China? And so forth) Any comments would be gratefully received!

I’d, need to see a close up of the knots on back (if back not covered that is), and if covered then a close up of front, both pile and especially a worn area that is: but at first glance 'looks' to me to be Chinese (and if so, most likely made in Ningxia), but IMO definitely made for the Tibetan market, hence some 'things' of note in it, but the red covered felt edges were almost certainly put on 'post production' in Tibet itself, even if the rug was not made there. But it also could just as easily be Tibetan made, and maybe it is (again, need to see knots to be 100% sure either way). Whatever it is Lloyd, it certainly aint no dog!:bravo: If you have it though, just throw it out in the trash bin (but my trash bin) ANYtime. :cheers:

EDIT. I will now stick my neck out here, after another look at it, and say that I think it is Tibetan made, (the centre, wherever it's made, being just a copy of a Chinese brocade pattern, which Tibetans often used in there rugs too), but lets see the pics if possible please.

Lloyd Kannenberg August 27th, 2017 04:17 PM

Hi Kay Dee!

First, thank you, for your original recommendations and for your kind comments. In deciding which books to buy first I tried to follow your wise policy, when you got Tzareva’s 1984 book on Central Asian rugs, of going for a more affordable reference with less than top quality pictures in order to familiarize yourself with the territory. You are to be congratulated for your rug book budget! But I must be content with only one book (at first, anyway) on Tibetan weavings, which is why I’m starting with Piccus. The Te-Chun Wang catalogue cost me $30 plus shipping, considerably more than I’ve seen for Tzareva’s book (down around $6 or so), it is true. I was interested in Glanz der Himmelssöhne not only because of Pierre’s recommendation but because it has been referenced elsewhere, for example by Sandra Whitman and Erica Yao in their HALI article on Tarim Basin rugs. But your advice makes sense!
Finally, I will try to get some detailed pictures of the rug I showed. I do know that Tibetan knotting is unique.

Thanks again!

Lloyd Kannenberg

Kay Dee August 27th, 2017 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lloyd Kannenberg (Post 22721)
But I must be content with only one book (at first, anyway) on Tibetan weavings, which is why I’m starting with Piccus.

Well you have picked one of the three best books on the subject there is!


Quote:

Originally Posted by Lloyd Kannenberg (Post 22721)
The Te-Chun Wang catalogue cost me $30 plus shipping, considerably more than I’ve seen for Tzareva’s book (down around $6 or so), it is true.

Good price!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lloyd Kannenberg (Post 22721)
Finally, I will try to get some detailed pictures of the rug I showed. I do know that Tibetan knotting is unique.

Yes it is, unmistakably so. I hope you can get some / a clear pic/s of the knotting on back, as would solve it once and for all. Or should. :rainy_day:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lloyd Kannenberg (Post 22721)
Thanks again!

No problemo!

Kay Dee August 27th, 2017 07:48 PM

Big Horse
 
Lloyd, I was hoping to contact you off-line by but I can't see a way to do so, so I am hoping I am not breaking any rules here by asking that if you should ever want to, shall we say, dispose in any way of your 'Big Horse Yarkand', if you haven't already done so, then please look me up. :)

Steve Price August 27th, 2017 07:52 PM

We don't keep avenues of communication open out of concern for privacy and security. Lloyd, if you'd like to contact Kay, just send me an e-mail message and I'll send you the contact information.

Steve Price

Jeff Sun August 28th, 2017 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lloyd Kannenberg (Post 22708)
Hello Kay Dee and All!


Meanwhile, here's the rug I'd like to learn about:


http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/khotan_copy.jpg

Surely it’s Chinese, but I thought a red cloth edging says “Tibet”. The books should help on this point and others (Is it OK? Is it a dog? From where in China? And so forth) Any comments would be gratefully received!

Lloyd Kannenberg

Hi Lloyd-

Well to determine Chinese or Tibetan, you really need to see the back of the rug. Looking at the front I would also go with Tibetan. Why, you might ask? It has lots of Chinese Motifs? Yes. It does. Many Tibetan rugs do.

1. The main tip-off to me is that the edges are wrapped in red felt. This is typical among many Tibetan rugs and usual among saddle carpets. Not that this is a saddle rug. More likely it is a Khaden. If the rug were a Khaden, or sleeping rug, that was removed from it's mattress than the edges would all be exposed, so wrap them up, safe and sound in some red felt! :)

2. The second indication that it is Tibetan and not Chinese, is that the red is actually pretty, um...RED. Older Chinese rugs often used logwood for red, and it fades, runs, and is universally NOT GOOD.

Kay Dee August 28th, 2017 07:16 AM

Red borders
 
Hi Jeff,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Sun (Post 22736)
1. The main tip-off to me is that the edges are wrapped in red felt. This is typical among many Tibetan rugs and usual among saddle carpets..

Agree with your above, and that Lloyds is almost certainly Tibetan (but without seeing the knots.........well), but................. ...............many / some Chinese rugs that were made specifically for the Tibetan market simply had that red edging added after arriving in Tibet. I myself have several Chinese rugs and Tibetan Khadens with it on (and numerous saddle rugs of course). I also have several rugs, made in Tibet, that do not have it, but do have a red pile border that directly mimics the red felt border as it were. Even from a short distance away you would swear it was the red felt border. :fez:

I must say Lloyds rug certainly has a unique swastika border. No that the swastika border is unique itself, but the way it is constructed / displayed her is, IMO!

PS. Lloyd, what are the dimensions of the rug, as it looks a little different size-wise than the 'typical' Tibetan Khaden size, which of course doesn't make it 'not Tibetan' by any means (maybe it is even a smallish Sapden)? Just wondering is all. :yin_yang:

PSS. Lloyd I just noticed when I downloaded your rug pic, the caption states 'khotan _copy'. Where did that reference come from if I may ask? :baffled:

Kay Dee August 28th, 2017 09:34 AM

I hope Lloyd - and everyone else - will forgive me for what I have done to his rug................. .......but, check out the very interesting design, besides the five roundels, throughout the centre field, which does not show up so clearly in the 'real' color photo he put, hence my 'tweaking' it (no, not twerking it!).

Very unusual design IMO, especially in a Tibetan made carpet. Now I am even starting to doubt my 'Tibet' origin belief for this carpet myself. :nerd2:

But hey, if anyone can / will / has come up with the unexpected though, it will be a Tibetan weaver. :cheers:

Knot photo desperately needed now if at all possible please Lloyd. :felix:

On second thoughts though Lloyd, I really think you should just get rid of it and throw it in the (my) bin now and you can then rest assured that I'll dispose of it in the proper fashion for you. :angelic: .:groucho: As like I first said, this rug is far far from a dog!

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/922/gEWgfg.jpg

Lloyd Kannenberg August 28th, 2017 12:53 PM

Hi Kay, Jeff and All,

Here are my best efforts at detailed pix. Apologies in advance for their quality, or rather lack thereof.

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/DSCF1919.JPG

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/DSCF1920.JPG

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/DSCF1922.JPG

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/DSCF1923.JPG

I tried to get a shot of a side and an end as well as just the knots, all from the back. The one from the front is of the most worn medallion. I hope they help.

Kay, you asked about the dimensions of the rug: It’s about 5 feet by 8, or 152 x 144 cm. I should say that the ends and sides of the rug are turned under, but since they are hidden behind the red casing I haven’t counted them. If they were turned up, each dimension would increase by about 2 inches or 5 cm.

The original picture is courtesy of the seller. The colors are pretty accurate, at least on my screen.

Thanks for your interest and patience!

Kay Dee August 28th, 2017 04:14 PM

It is, as I started to think, unfortunately, after I 'enhanced it', ' Chinese' made, that is either was made for the Tibetan market or just ended up in Tibet and had the red border added their. That is, it is definitely NOT Tibetan knotting! And the size makes it more a floor carpet (Sapden in Tibetan) than a sleeping carpet (Khaden in Tibetan).

Still a beauty, but not such a beauty as it would have been had it been a Tibetan. :errormonkey: And maybe that's why the caption on the .jpg I downloaded and 'enhanced' (not) said 'Khotan'?

But like I said, if your ever thwacking it away................ ...:battle: .............please remember me.:thumbsup:


EDIT: Opps, something wrong with those measurement Lloyd; that is 5 feet by 8ft is not 152 x 144 cm! :baffled: Which is it?

EDIT 2. As Steve Price said below Lloyd, would you be kind enough to contact me via him, as I have another question for you that this forum does not allow open discussion of here as it were. Thanks.

Lloyd Kannenberg August 28th, 2017 05:07 PM

Hello Kay,

The correct dimensions are 5 feet by 8 or 152 x 244 cm; but what's 100 cm between friends?

I've resent my off-line message at the address Steve gave me; the previous attempt must have fallen into the bit bucket. Maybe your spam protector caught it. Smart move on its part.

Cheers!

Jeff Sun August 28th, 2017 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kay Dee (Post 22744)
It is, as I started to think, unfortunately, after I 'enhanced it', ' Chinese' made, that is either was made for the Tibetan market or just ended up in Tibet and had the red border added their. That is, it is definitely NOT Tibetan knotting! And the size makes it more a floor carpet (Sapden in Tibetan) than a sleeping carpet (Khaden in Tibetan").

Agree 100%, Kay. Certainly Chinese, maybe Ningxia given the Ningxia-esque swastika border?

Back to the original topic. In addition to the Tsarev book, which I have, you may want to check out "Oriental Rugs Vol 3 The Carpets of Afghanistan by Richard D. Parsons".

Joel Greifinger August 28th, 2017 09:56 PM

Use With Caution
 
Quote:

you may want to check out Oriental Rugs Vol 3 The Carpets of Afghanistan by Richard D. Parsons
Hi Jeff,

I agree that Parsons' can be a useful book. It provides a very good overview of mid-twentieth century Afghan rugs. This was clearly his intention, as the few older rugs pictured date no earlier than the 1920's or so.

Problems arise when his categories are extrapolated back to earlier Turkmen and 'Baluch' weavings. I've read commentary and attributions by dealers who largely trade in later Afghan material inaccurately describe 19th century weavings from these groups citing Parsons as their source. :rant:

Joel Greifinger

Jeff Sun August 29th, 2017 02:10 AM

There is a definite danger in this type of conversation. What kind of danger you might ask? Danger of me buying more books!

...or to quote that renowned philosopher, Britney Spears..."Oooops I did it again!"

Last time we had a book conversation I ended up buying A Historical Atlas of Tibet on Kay Dee's recommendation. (super nice btw)

This time I found Te-Chun Wang's book at a bargain and also picked up a used copy of From the Land of the Snow Lion...but was that enough?

Nooooooooo.... I also found a copy of Glanz! Not at a bargain. But hey, I was on a roll...and I think I have almost exhausted all sources on Chinese and Tibetan rugs.

The danger now is that it won't stop there. Inevitably, after hunting for books, I start hunting for carpets. Stop me now before it is too late.

Maybe some of you have the same issues?

Kay Dee August 29th, 2017 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Sun;22750}
Last time we had a book conversation I ended up buying [U
A Historical Atlas of Tibet[/U] on Kay Dee's recommendation. (super nice btw)

Glad you liked it. :thumbsup: Sure puts into perspective the vastness of Tibet, and, even if I just speak for myself here, the places we have heard about but really didn't have a clue where exactly in Tibet they were (unless of course you had been there, which I hadn't / haven't :madgo:. ) When I lived next door, in 70's, early, 80's, twas not 'open' to us gweilo/u's .:thumbsdown:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Sun (Post 22750)
This time I found Te-Chun Wang's book at a bargain and also picked up a used copy of From the Land of the Snow Lion...but was that enough?

When is too much not enough? What ye think of 'Snow Lion' then?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Sun (Post 22750)
Nooooooooo.... I also found a copy of Glanz! Not at a bargain. But hey, I was on a roll...and I think I have almost exhausted all sources on Chinese and Tibetan rugs.

Well if I could read German, I'd certainly buy it too!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Sun (Post 22750)
The danger now is that it won't stop there. Inevitably, after hunting for books, I start hunting for carpets. Stop me now before it is too late.

Not possible, incurable virus. No one with it has ever been know to have been cured AFAIK. :laughing_1:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Sun (Post 22750)
Maybe some of you have the same issues?

Color me, well, that color!:thumbsup: :cheers:

Filiberto Boncompagni August 29th, 2017 07:29 AM

Hi guys,
You can send a private message to a member by clicking on his name (up left on the post). A menu will appear. The second item will be “Send a private message to…”

Kay Dee August 29th, 2017 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Sun (Post 22747)
Agree 100%, Kay. Certainly Chinese, maybe Ningxia given the Ningxia-esque swastika border?

And isn't that beautiful, beautiful border!!! But I am leaning, but only leaning mind you, towards that it may be from Gansu area? But still wondering why the image .jpg is labeled as 'Khotan' as it doesn't look to be from there to me, but................. .what do I know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Sun (Post 22747)
Back to the original topic. In addition to the Tsarev book, which I have, you may want to check out "Oriental Rugs Vol 3 The Carpets of Afghanistan by Richard D. Parsons".

Argh, I may not have been clear. I have a fairly decent collection of books on Afghan rugs, some from back in the day of O'Bannon, etc but................. ..........they are all stored in another country, and as I do not have what you would call a 'permanent' home at present, have to be a little careful what I buy as when moving my yurt from pasture to pasture I gotta make sure I can still fit in. So, apart from my addiction to Tibet / western China rugs / books, I have to tread carefully with the Afghans, etc, nowadays and only buy when I see / know of a highly recommend book at a bargain basement price. I mean, surely, I don't think I am expecting toooooooo much there (not)? :jester:

But as Joel says, and same with some of the lets say pre 2000 books on Tibetan and / or Chinese carpets (even some that were considered 'bibles' in their day), there is a more than a fair share of, unintentional no doubt, but 'suspect' ID's of certain carpets, and written text to boot in some. (But gotta learn from others mistakes sometimes when it comes to rugs / books.) Still, I have most or maybe all of them as they are still useful as long as you know how to tell the forest from the trees, or in the case of rugs, is that the trees from the forest? :fez:

Jeff Sun August 29th, 2017 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kay Dee (Post 22757)
And isn't that beautiful, beautiful border!!! But I am leaning, but only leaning mind you, towards that it may be from Gansu area? But still wondering why the image .jpg is labeled as 'Khotan' as it doesn't look to be from there to me, but................. .what do I know.

Maybe it is labelled Khotan, because whoever labeled it was unsure and just wanted to get in the general area.[/B]

Kay Dee August 30th, 2017 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Sun (Post 22760)
Maybe it is labelled Khotan, because whoever labeled it was unsure and just wanted to get in the general area.[/B]

I think you pre-edit answer was better, that is they just wanted the folks on Turkotek to ID it for them! :) :pie:

Kay Dee August 30th, 2017 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Sun (Post 22750)
The danger now is that it won't stop there. Inevitably, after hunting for books, I start hunting for carpets. Stop me now before it is too late.

Jeff, given your addiction is similar to mine, I know well the cravings one has to endure to even keep it at bay, let alone cure it, so rather than help you let me again recommend something to feed your addiction / affliction. :jester:

That is, just received in the mail yesterday;
From Our Living Hands by Miranda Mimi Kuo (and Chris Buckley). Pub 2005. Can't tell you how many pages, as there not numbered, but max only 25 to 30 (or so?) I would say.

And I see a few and only a few copies on Bookfinder.com and IIRC starting at around 40USD; although I bought my copy ex Oztralia for a little less inc postage, so not cheap by any means for a small paged, but largish (slightly 'oversized' actually) format soft covered book, but to me well worth the dinero. Well worth.

Now while this book has Tibetan rugs in it, it is more / mainly about the weavers of said rugs, and their long family lineage of traditionally doing so shall we say. I wont say too much more but a VERY unique book, and given your affliction then I think it would be right up your ally Jeff.

Anyway sorry to be so nasty and dangle another juicy tidbit in front of you, but after all what are fiends for? :rofl:

NOTE; This is not a book I would particularly recommend to anyone looking for books with a lot of info about Tibetan rugs themselves in (as the three I mentioned previously do), but more for someone (like I, and it seems Jeff) who just must have every book they can find on Tibetan weaving's. With that said though, it is in a class of it's own with its unique 'perspective' shall we say, and the color photos, mostly of the weavers (many / most) full page, not of rugs per se, are simply magnificent. :thumbsup:

Jeff Sun August 30th, 2017 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kay Dee (Post 22772)

From Our Living Hands by Miranda Mimi Kuo (and Chris Buckley).

Available as a PDF!
http://www.academia.edu/2265593/Livi...ans_FULL_TEXT_

Kay Dee August 31st, 2017 07:12 PM

Well I guess this is where we will have to agree to disagree a little Jeff. I'm old school, that is I'd rather pay to feel the wood (err, paper) between my fingers than get a (free or paid for) PDF, which I am still going to want to print out, and then the photos (to me) will be inferior. And as a photographer I love photos, or should I say quality photos.:nerd:

Nor am I giving anyone I don't have to any permission to access my email account and see all my 'contacts', as this acadamia.eu does. Do you know about that site? Interesting story but you'll have to Google that. I ain't the time or the care writing it up here.:(

Colour me crazy, but..............I just call it 'old school'.:laughing_2:

Jeff Sun August 31st, 2017 07:58 PM

Hi Kay-

I’m with you on preferring paper…sometimes. And let’s face it much of the literature on our chosen topics was written in another century(ies) and print is the only way you are going to get it. However as I get older I find electronic media has several distinct advantages:

1. Searchable- Punch in a term like “Takyab” or “Torba” and you can find things much quicker.
2. Cheaper-…usually.
3. Transportable- Like yourself, I have moved shop a couple of times and hauling a stack of books around is very inconvenient.
4. Compact-That same stack of books takes up a lot of living space.
5. Transferrable and Accessible- Anywhere I can bring a tablet, I can have my ebooks. At least in theory. I can also send quotes and pics if needed.

As to making all my contacts available….Naaahhh! I have an email account that I use for just such things with NO CONTACTS at all.:)

Kay Dee August 31st, 2017 09:08 PM

e-books, etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Sun (Post 22799)
Hi Kay-
I’m with you on preferring paper…sometimes. And let’s face it much of the literature on our chosen topics was written in another century(ies) and print is the only way you are going to get it.

Agreed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Sun (Post 22799)
However as I get older I find electronic media has several distinct advantages: 1,2,3,4,5..........

Also agreed, basically, that is for everything except photographic type books so to speak............... ...but as Moshe Dayan once said "Times change and I change with them".. Well, lets see how I go.:jester:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Sun (Post 22799)
As to making all my contacts available….Naaahhh! I have an email account that I use for just such things with NO CONTACTS at all.:)

How interesting you should say that, as if I did not have the book, and wanted to look at it (to see if it was worth buying for instance) then I thought of doing exactly what you suggest. A a matter of fact I have one such email for a similar purpose. So I guess where not disagreeing so much after all. :angelic:

So, just to be clear, what you are saying is, if you have an email address with no contacts, then you just click on 'allow' an they still accept that (with no contacts correct)?

But I do still have 'trouble' so to speak with reading, say, books on-line as it were, but as you say, much easier for traveling etc, and for say history / fiction books without pics, certainly the way to go!:fez:

Jeff Sun September 1st, 2017 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kay Dee (Post 22801)
So, just to be clear, what you are saying is, if you have an email address with no contacts, then you just click on 'allow' an they still accept that (with no contacts correct)?

Yes. It seems so.

But back to books! Here are my impressions of my recent purchases:

1. Glanz der Himmelssohne- Big book. REAL big. Coffee table sized. German text. I'm not a big fan of coffee table books, but given the topic I really can't argue too much. As the title would suggest "Glow of the Heavens", one might think the rugs in here are Imperial rugs...and at one time they might have been, but now they seem to be mostly in museum and private collections and all date to 19th century or earlier. However, a better title might have been "Rugs from Ningxia" because almost all of them are from Ningxia with only 1 or 2 exceptions. In fact, this might be the best book I've seen (But not read. Ha!)on the topic. I don't think there is a book exclusively on Ningxia rugs, but this is close. Even if you can't understand the German text, the photography is excellent, except, seemingly for the rugs that I was most curious about, which have very small photos. Or maybe I am interested in them BECAUSE they are small. Expensive. Unless you are really down with Ningxia Rugs and know German (mine is rather mehhhh), I think you can do with out it. Of course, I am really down with Ningxia rugs, and Chinese rugs in general, so I rate that a buy.

2.Antique Carpets-Te-Chun Wang Collection Pretty typical book of the 1970s. Pretty extraordinary for an auction catalog though. And as to the rugs. Ohh my! Wow. Just Wowwwwwww! Te-Chun knew how to pick them. There were better quality rugs in his private stash than in most major museums.

3.From the Land of the Snow Lion Just go buy it. This is a hefty volume on good bond paper re-pleat with good photos and informative text in English. This is a book on Tibetan craftsmanship and not necessarily just about rugs.I However, the section on carpets is big. Bigger than other dedicated books. The rugs depicted there are interesting and beautiful. Other than some takyabs, there are no carpets that I can say are repeated in other books. The sections on textiles, jewelry and carpentry also look interesting. A bit disappointing that my book arrived with a bent corner and a weak spine, but still a bargain. It's also the cheapest of the 3 books making it the easy choice: Just go get it.

Kay Dee September 1st, 2017 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Sun (Post 22808)
But back to books! Here are my impressions of my recent purchases:

1. However, a better title might have been "Rugs from Ningxia" because almost all of them are from Ningxia with only 1 or 2 exceptions. In fact, this might be the best book I've seen (But not read. Ha!)on the topic.

Well thanks a lot Jeff, that's now another problem you have caused me!:devil:

Do I like Ningxia? Do I like NINGXIA?? Do I LIKE NINGXIA??? DO I LIKE NINGXIA????:baffled:

Well yes I do, and now I am going to have to buy this book, cost and not being able to read German be damned. :money: :nerd2:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Sun (Post 22808)
2.Antique Carpets-Te-Chun Wang Collection Pretty typical book of the 1970s. Pretty extraordinary for an auction catalog though. And as to the rugs. Ohh my! Wow. Just Wowwwwwww! Te-Chun knew how to pick them. There were better quality rugs in his private stash than in most major museums.

Yeah, can second that. But I have it 'back (where what was once) home' and at the price today just cant justify buying it a 2nd time - as I have with quite a few others - until I will (soon) win the lottery!:clap:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Sun (Post 22808)
3.From the Land of the Snow Lion Just go buy it. It's also the cheapest of the 3 books making it the easy choice: Just go get it.

Got it and agree fully, no ifs or buts!:angelic:

Kay Dee September 2nd, 2017 02:10 PM

Chinese style rug weave
 
I wonder if I am asking too much to suggest that a / the moderator split this thread into the posts re Lloyds rug, and the posts re Tibetan / Chinese rug / carpet book suggestions? :dancer:

Possible? :sherlock:

And on that note, I found elsewhere a photo of the back of Lloyds lovely rug, and post it here in fairly large format so folks (who may not be so familiar with same) can get a could handle on the distinctive Chinese weaving (as opposed to Tibetan weaving, which I will post one of here later).

EDIT: Opps, didn't show up as large as I thought. :confused:

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/924/wqkkza.jpg

Steve Price September 2nd, 2017 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kay Dee (Post 22837)
I wonder if I am asking too much to suggest that a / the moderator split this thread into the posts re Lloyds rug, and the posts re Tibetan / Chinese rug / carpet book suggestions? :dancer:

Possible? :sherlock:

Hi Kay

Merging threads is easy, separating one thread into two or more, not so much. The short answer to your question is, yes, it is asking too much (at least, for me; Filiberto may be willing to do it).

Steve Price

Joel Greifinger September 2nd, 2017 03:02 PM

Quote:

Opps, didn't show up as large as I thought.
K.D.,

That photo shows up quite large on my computer monitor and takes up the entire space on my tablet. Photos larger than this make it very tough to view for various monitors/devices. :cry:

Joel

Filiberto Boncompagni September 2nd, 2017 03:07 PM

Quote:

Filiberto may be willing to do it
:errormonkey:

Kay Dee September 3rd, 2017 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joel Greifinger (Post 22840)
K.D.,

That photo shows up quite large on my computer monitor and takes up the entire space on my tablet. Photos larger than this make it very tough to view for various monitors/devices. :cry:

Joel

Odd, shows up about half size I posted on my computer.

And no problems not to be able to separate thread, just thought I'd ask, as it seems to have gone in two directions now. So be it. Que sera, sera.

Pierre Galafassi September 3rd, 2017 12:49 PM

Hi guys,

I am sure most of you have their copy of Hans Bidder’s Carpets from Turkestan.

A more precise title could have been - Carpets from Eastern Turkestan- as the focus is clearly on rugs from the oasis cities surrounding the Takla Makan, especially on Khotan rugs.
However, it is very interesting for any groupie of Chinese rugs too, since Bidder exposes his very personal, (but well argued and based on many antique Chinese reports) theory about the importance (or rather the lack of importance) of pile rugs for the (Han) Chinese civilization.

Jeff Sun and I did debate a bit this point in a thread of the series «Rugs and Old Masters»
http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthr...p?t=913&page=3

Members of the Chinomaniac sect of the Turkotek community, might want to share with us their opinions about the history of genuinely Chinese rugs, in a new thread, one of these days? I, for one, would be glad to learn more about this field.


About Glanz der Himmelsöhne: IMHO an imperfect understanding of German by its readers is not really a problem, as this book is only outstanding in the number and quality of its illustrations.
The text itself is not particularly exciting, at least for me, as it does not really clarify the history of Chinese rugs.

Besides, Jeff is fully right: the focus is clearly on Western China Ningxia rugs, probably woven, mainly or exclusively, by (Sinicized) Turco-Mongol ethnic groups and is much less focused on genuine (Han) Chinese rugs, except half a dozen of (superb) Court rugs, very likely to have been woven in Imperial Workshops in Beijing for example. There is also the odd pile rug clearly influenced by steppe felt rugs.

Best regards
Pierre

Kay Dee September 4th, 2017 06:34 AM

Although I have several East Turkestan rugs I would not fell comfortable myself re 'debating them' as I know little about 'em 'cept I like (most of) them.

Now re the other book mentioned on Ningxia rugs; besides the title it then says "TEPPICHE AUS CHINA, 1400 - 1750."

Given that IMO we rarely, and I mean very rarely, see on the market Ningxia examples earlier than the 1700's (and then usually pretty tattered):
1) what condition are these very early rugs in?
2) are the examples 'weighted' evenly accross that date range, or.......?
And, finally,
3) more importantly where did they come from? (Yes, Ningxia, but..........who has them now, private individuals / collectors or museums and the like?)

TIA for any answers.

Pierre Galafassi September 4th, 2017 04:34 PM

Hi Kay,

I‘d have to browse through the book again to check my rather poor memory, but I believe that most of the oldest extant specimens (15th and 16th century) were supposedly woven in China’s Imperial workshops, for the Palace. Silk pile, palette (imperial gold orange) and main motif (imperial dragons with the proper count of claws), make this attribution quite credible IMHO.
The authors tentatively mention Beijin as weaving place, but do not even try to guess the ethnic origin of the weavers.

Quite a number of state portraits of enthroned Emperors from the 14th to the 19th century are also shown. They mostly feature rugs with geometric motifs of an amazingly constant type, spanning dynasties and centuries. Design and palette are mostly very different from the mentioned extant*Imperial dragon rugs*.

The oldest extant rugs from Ningsia (the focus of this book) and from other northwestern China origins (Xinjiang,..), are dated from the 16th and 17th century, a few pieces are probably older, but most illustrated pieces are given as 18h century.

Of course there are more 17th and 18th century rugs than 14th-16th century ones in this book, but the older ones are still quite a gang and quite impressive, at least for me.

Considering their ages, all these extant pieces are still in an amazingly good state of conservation.

By far most rugs are owned by unnamed collectors and I would not be surprised to hear that they are published for the first time. The remaining ones are owned by museums like the Musée des Arts Décoratifs de Lyon, the Textile Museum, Washington, the Gion Festival Museum, Kioto, the Al-Thani Collection, Quatar, the National Palace, Taipei, the Museum der Angewandte Kunst, Frankfurt, the Thyssen-Bornemisza Collection and the Museum for Ostasiatische Kunst, Köln.
I would not expect these pieces to change hands very often.

I hope to have, at least in part, answered your questions.
Best regards
Pierre

Kay Dee September 4th, 2017 04:40 PM

You and Jeff have convinced me, book is on order. :party:


Edit: And yes, Pierre, THANKS for answering ALL my questions, and then some!

Kay Dee September 5th, 2017 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kay Dee (Post 22837)
And on that note................ .................... ..............so folks (who may not be so familiar with same) can get a could handle on the distinctive Chinese weaving (as opposed to Tibetan weaving, which I will post one of here later).

Better late than never as they say, but re underlined above, see below a comparison between Chinese and Tibetan rug knotting / weaning 'style' in a 1 inch exact / approx 2.5cm square.:angelic:

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/922/RsbQX0.jpg

Kay Dee September 6th, 2017 12:05 AM

Another book (oldish) I can recommend to the true Tibetophile/ Ningxiaophile is:

Carpets from China, Xinjiang and Tibet by Lennart Larsson Jnr. (pub 1989)

Coincidentally, although have had the book for sometime, recently meet / am now friends with the woman that was the authors personal friend and sold most of the collection in the book sometime in the 90's, or thereabouts. Wow (for her)!:banana:

Lloyd Kannenberg September 6th, 2017 01:16 AM

Hello Kay,

Thanks for the detailed images comparing Chinese and Tibetan weaves!

BTW, I hope the communications problems have been solved, thanks to Steve.

Lloyd Kannenberg

Jeff Sun September 6th, 2017 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kay Dee (Post 22936)
Another book (oldish) I can recommend to the true Tibetophile/ Ningxiaophile is:

Carpets from China, Xinjiang and Tibet by Lennart Larsson Jnr. (pub 1989)

Coincidentally, although have had the book for sometime, recently meet / am now friends with the woman that was the authors personal friend and sold most of the collection in the book sometime in the 90's, or thereabouts. Wow (for her)!:banana:

Thanks again. I just picked this one up for $9 including shipping. Tough to pass it up at that price.

As for the author who sold the collection: I get that. I don't place too high a value on material things, so carpets are something of an exception. In fact, sometimes I rather like the IDEA of carpets more than carpets themselves.

My wife has often asked "What are you going to do with all of these rugs?".... meaning when I have gone to the great barkor in the sky, some one is going to have to deal with my collection. Fair point I suppose. But also easily solved, I think: Donate them to a museum and get the resulting charitable tax deduction! I may eventually do it myself for that matter.

As to Glanz, Yes. most of the rugs are in great condition. Most are Ningxia and undoubtedly some are from imperial workshops as Pierre mentioned.

Kay Dee September 6th, 2017 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Sun (Post 22938)
I just picked this one up for $9 including shipping. Tough to pass it up at that price............... .........As for the author who sold the collection: I get that. I don't place too high a value on material things, so carpets are something of an exception. In fact, sometimes I rather like the IDEA of carpets more than carpets themselves.

Yes the $9 you paid was a good price alright, I think I paid a little more plus shipping. But, here, in a second hand bookstore (a rarity in itself) if you want to buy what they think is a rare copy - guess their not to hip to all the online 'bookshops' - it's a $100 . :cry:

And again yes, I certainly get the idea of the idea of carpets more than the carpets themselves, hence why I can (do) buy a 'lot' of carpets (in book fashion) for what is just a sliver of the cost of a carpet itself! But, when something catches my eye, of course I still buy the carpets too. :laughing_2:

And re re the lady who sold most of said collection, she certainly wishes she still had (most of) them now though!

Kay Dee September 6th, 2017 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lloyd Kannenberg (Post 22937)
Hello Kay,
BTW, I hope the communications problems have been solved, thanks to Steve.
Lloyd Kannenberg

Argh, no, I haven't heard from you Lloyd, (nor received your email address from Steve, if that's how it works?).

Steve Price September 6th, 2017 11:53 AM

Hi Lloyd and Kay

I received messages from both of you, each asking for the other's e-mail address. I forwarded Kay's to Lloyd, forwarded Lloyd's to Kay. I can't think of any good reason why they shouldn't have gotten to their destinations.

Steve

Kay Dee September 6th, 2017 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Price (Post 22944)
Hi Lloyd and Kay

I received messages from both of you, each asking for the other's e-mail address. I forwarded Kay's to Lloyd, forwarded Lloyd's to Kay. I can't think of any good reason why they shouldn't have gotten to their destinations.

Steve

Hi Steve,

Nope, as of 9am, west coast USA time 6th Sept, not in any of my emails address boxes or spam/junk folders (and no contact from Lloyd).

Eaten up in cyber space it seems.:rainy_day:

Kay Dee September 6th, 2017 06:37 PM

Opps!!!!!!
 
Opps, Opps. OPPS!

Argh, ummm, Steve, do you think if I put my current email address on my profile page as it were, would that help? :banghead:

So maybe, just maybe, that's the problem!:baffled:

Seems when I changed servers a few months ago, I forgot to update my new address on this board. :thumbsdown: Shame on me and my sincere apologies Steve (and Lloyd) :cheers:

But, odd that your message/s 'to me' Steve just didn't bounce right back, as that email address is no longer in existence, and the few people I know that tried to contact me elsewhere that way got a 'bounce back'.

Anyway, current one is there now. Again, my apologies Steve / Lloyd.

Steve Price September 6th, 2017 08:12 PM

Hi

I just sent an email message to both of you (Lloyd and Kay). You can harvest each other's email addresses from it.

If that doesn't solve the problem, you'll have to find some other way to do it or leave it unsolved. We don't do anything commercial on our pages. Facilitating it under the table isn't forbidden, but it's not something I want to be bothered with, either.

Steve

Kay Dee September 7th, 2017 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Price (Post 22953)
Hi
I just sent an email message to both of you (Lloyd and Kay). You can harvest each other's email addresses from it.

If that doesn't solve the problem, you'll have to find some other way to do it or leave it unsolved. We don't do anything commercial on our pages. Facilitating it under the table isn't forbidden, but it's not something I want to be bothered with, either.
Steve

Hi Guys,

Thanks (again) Steve, got it this time! :bravo:

Marvelous how things work when one puts in the correct information. :banghead:

Anyway Lloyd, if you also got the email from Steve, flick me an email and I'll get right back to you.:cheers:

And no Steve, the contact with Lloyd is not primarily re 'commercial interest/s' by any means, but there are some things I would like to say / discuss with Llyod re some matters that do not need to be discussed on the forum.

Rich Larkin September 9th, 2017 02:12 AM

William Blake...
 
Hi folks,

I must take advantage of this visit from the Chinese/Tibetan rug mavens to get some comments on my little item.

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tel..._Chin_full.jpg

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tel...d_Chin_det.jpg

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tel...ld_Chin_bk.jpg

For the record, the yellow colors in the first image are more intense than the real thing. The close-up (second) image is a good representation of the colors in the piece. The rug is about 3’ 6” X 2’.

I am interested in your responses to the following details:
  • The pale yellow border has an endless repeat of swastika shapes incised into the surface of the pile. It is suggestive of 'carved' Chinese rugs that were being exported in the third quarter of the 20th century, but much more subtle. Just noticing it requires close attention. My question is whether anyone has seen the same phenomenon in other older Chinese rugs. (I have not.)
  • Another point of interest is the design color of the central field against the yellow background. I call it "stone green," and I have not found it in any other rug. The places featuring the color are uniformly lower than the surrounding yellow. I have surmised that the dye was corrosive, resulting in that effect; but I imagine the pile in those areas could have been clipped shorter intentionally. Any thoughts in that regard? (It does seem that the so-called "stone green" could easily be a combination of the lightest blue of the rug and the strong yellow of the field; if that were the case, it might augur for the theory that the color was intentonally clipped low.) I am aware the general design is considered to represent a tiger pelt, and is a known Chinese mat or saddle rug design.
  • An interesting detail of the design appears in the detail shot. It is the single line of black within one of the tiger stripes. In fact, this stripe is along one edge of the field about half way up the rug. It consists of ten knots, and it is repeated exactly in a corresponding stripe on the opposite side of the field. The knots are black, not the deep blue found elsewhere in the rug. The black yarn does not occur anywhere else in the rug other than in those two stripes. The black lines are lower pile like the green areas adjoining them. Certainly, the thin black lines were incorporated intentionally. Does anyone know what the reason may have been? Identifying markers? Does this sort of talismanic feature appear often in other Chinese rugs?

I am interested to know whether any readers have encountered any of these features in other Chinese rugs, and I would be happy to receive any other comments about my mat.

Rich

Kay Dee September 9th, 2017 07:06 AM

Tiger rug
 
Just quickly Rich as am on my way out, but on first glance of your rug, WOW!

'Looks' very nice!!

When back on-line will have closer look / read of your questions (which require a precise read / think about) and see what, if anything, I can come up with.

Thanks for posting!!!:cheers:

Kay Dee September 10th, 2017 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Larkin (Post 22973)
Hi folks,
For the record, the yellow colors in the first image are more intense than the real thing. The close-up (second) image is a good representation of the colors in the piece. The rug is about 3’ 6” X 2’.
I am interested in your responses to the following details:
  • The pale yellow border has an endless repeat of swastika shapes incised into the surface of the pile. It is suggestive of 'carved' Chinese rugs that were being exported in the third quarter of the 20th century, but much more subtle. Just noticing it requires close attention. My question is whether anyone has seen the same phenomenon in other older Chinese rugs. (I have not.)

Yes I (think) I have but not necessarily with swastikas. I say I think I have as, without looking through an endless array of saved photos to find a specific, I have seen a couple of old Chinese rugs that appear to have small features incised, but then one sometimes wonders if the dye, or something else in the tight surrounds causes this ‘aberration'. But yours does look deliberately incised to me. So not sure what to say here, but looks older that mid to late 20c to me. But hey, there are relatively new rugs, specifically Wangdens, coming out of Tibet now that are somewhat hard to discern the true age of (in a photo, anyway).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Larkin (Post 22973)
  • Another point of interest is the design color of the central field against the yellow background. I call it "stone green," and I have not found it in any other rug. The places featuring the color are uniformly lower than the surrounding yellow.

  • Argh, see my above.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rich Larkin (Post 22973)
    I have surmised that the dye was corrosive, resulting in that effect; but I imagine the pile in those areas could have been clipped shorter intentionally.

    In one of the old Chinese rugs I have I am almost certain that this is the case.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rich Larkin (Post 22973)
    Any thoughts in that regard? (It does seem that the so-called "stone green" could easily be a combination of the lightest blue of the rug and the strong yellow of the field;

    Yes, IMO, without it in my hand, the stripes and backbone, if that’s what you refer to, appear bluer to me.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rich Larkin (Post 22973)
    If that were the case, it might augur for the theory that the color was intentionally clipped low.)

    Again, see my (high)above.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rich Larkin (Post 22973)
    I am aware the general design is considered to represent a tiger pelt, and is a known Chinese mat or saddle rug design.

Correct. But generally, seemingly either made for the Tibetan market, or for a high Chinese Lama or official, or more / as commonly actually made in Tibet (which yours obviously is not). For instance, see The Tiger Rugs Of Tibet by Mini Lipton.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Larkin (Post 22973)
  • An interesting detail of the design appears in the detail shot. It is the single line of black within one of the tiger stripes. In fact, this stripe is along one edge of the field about half way up the rug. It consists of ten knots, and it is repeated exactly in a corresponding stripe on the opposite side of the field. The knots are black, not the deep blue found elsewhere in the rug. The black yarn does not occur anywhere else in the rug other than in those two stripes. The black lines are lower pile like the green areas adjoining them. Certainly, the thin black lines were incorporated intentionally. Does anyone know what the reason may have been? Identifying markers? Does this sort of talismanic feature appear often in other Chinese rugs?

You’ve got me their Rich, first for even noticing them! So, on this, the best I can do is say your guess is as good as mine here!

Below a couple of other ‘Chinese’ Tiger rugs and one Tibetan to ponder.

One (the borderless older one, supposedly circa 1850) definitely a saddle ‘top’ rug (which given the dimensions of your one Rich, yours just ‘may’ be, but if so appears unused / little used in that ‘position’ as it were).

And a bottom saddle rug from Batou supposedly, but claimed date (late 19c) seems a liitle suspect to me. But................. ......anything is possible in the world of rugs. (However, note the 'similar' main border to yours.)

And finally another rug from China 'somewhere'. Note the unique / very odd ends!

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/922/cz0QSl.jpg

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/922/oEGsCH.jpg

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/922/3skq2Z.jpg

Rich Larkin September 10th, 2017 05:15 PM

Hi Kay,

Thanks for the comments.

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Larkin
Quote:

I have surmised that the dye was corrosive, resulting in that effect; but I imagine the pile in those areas could have been clipped shorter intentionally.
In one of the old Chinese rugs I have I am almost certain that this is the case.
What do you think is the case? That the dye was corrosive, or that the pile was clipped low in the first instance?

I acquired the rug in about 1970, and it looked then exactly like it does now. Note for example the dark stain in the lower left corner. That was evidently an ink stain, and it still appears blue in the cotton wefts when viewed from the back, as though it happened a couple of months ago. But it turned brownish in the pile parts on the surface. I would think that happened over a considerable period of time. Anyway, that was the opinion of the man who sold it to me, a gentleman of considerable experience in the oriental rug business. I think the mat is probably pre-1900.

Your comment about the Chinese rug possibly having been woven for the Tibetan market (or perhaps some other specific market) is interesting. It is evident that the various design elements are part of a specific tradition, as reflected for example in the middle one of the three pieces you posted. In that regard, by the way, I had owned it for quite a while before I came to realize it represented a tiger pelt. Before that discovery, I had been working on a theory that had the wiggily stripes as some sort of sea creature, the spine down the middle a feeding trough, and the outer border a vast, foaming ocean. All I can say about that is, speculative research can be extremely dangerous. :vomit: :eek: :thumbsdown: :sherlock:

Rich

Pierre Galafassi September 10th, 2017 05:29 PM

Hi Rich,

Quote:
*… Another point of interest is the design color of the central field against the yellow background. I call it stone green, and I have not found it in any other rug. The places featuring the color are uniformly lower than the surrounding yellow. I have surmised that the dye was corrosive, resulting in that effect; but I imagine the pile in those areas could have been clipped shorter intentionally….

I agree with your hypothesis. It seems, to me too, much more likely that the clipping was intentional. Not only because the weaver was obviously a serial clipper.

I believe that greens were nearly always obtained by successive dyeing with indigo (vat-dyeing) and with one of the many natural yellows available, mostly applied by *alum-mordant dyeing. Some natural yellow dyes could be applied by so-called*direct dyeing (without mordanting of the wool). However the latter dyes often led to borderline wet- and/or light-fastnesses.

Neither Indigo vat dyeing, nor direct dyeing with natural yellows, nor the usual mordant dyeing (with alum) with natural yellows will cause any wool degradation over time.

For the sake of completeness, I only mention here that applying some natural yellows on wool mordanted with a very low concentration of copper salts, leads to a greener shade of yellow (not to a proper green mind you) than when alum mordant is used, and that this copper mordanting has the potential for triggering a fibre degradation.
But the risk is very limited because
a) only very low copper concentrations will obtain that greenish yellow shade and
b) I have no proof that this quite acrobatic method was ever used in real life.

Best regards
Pierre

Rich Larkin September 10th, 2017 07:26 PM

Hi Pierre,

That all sounds perfectly logical. I hadn’t taken such careful note that our weaver was evidently a serial clipper. :fez: Shrewd observation, in your usual manner!

I do not want to hijack this thread, but I would like to inquire regarding your comments on the copper-induced greenish yellow. No doubt, you are familiar with the occurrence of a slightly corrosive light green (called “celadon green” in some quarters) found in some Persian rugs, notably nineteenth century Ferahans. Heinrich Jacoby and Reinhard Hubel refer to it as ab-i-sangar, or (literally) “stone blue” in Farsi; but Jacoby says, better to call it “stone green.” He goes on to say the dyeing process utilized copper sulfate, leaving the wool susceptible to corrosion.

This khorjin face has a Hamadan weave, and features a light green I take to be the same as or similar to what is found in the old Ferahans.
http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tel..._Grn_Hamdn.jpg
http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tel...mdn_det_cr.jpg
http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tel...m_det_brdr.jpg

In fact, Jacoby described the ab-i-sangar effect as “greyish green,” a comment with which I agree based on older Ferahans I have handled. The khorjin shade above is somewhat more cheerful. However, the color in the khorjin shifts to a shade much closer to the old Ferahan version in the upper section, as seen in the central border. In addition, it is slightly corrosive, as shown in the (slightly fuzzy) low angle view of the border.

I wonder whether you are able to recognize the green in my images as exemplary of the copper effect to which you referred. And thanks for your comments, insightful as usual.

Rich

Kay Dee September 10th, 2017 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Larkin (Post 23000)
What do you think is the case? That the dye was corrosive, or that the pile was clipped low in the first instance?

That it had been clipped / incised.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Larkin (Post 23000)
I acquired the rug in about 1970 ---------- I think the mat is probably pre-1900.

I agree that it certainly looks more like c1900, not late 20c.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Larkin (Post 23000)
Your comment about the Chinese rug possibly having been woven for the Tibetan market (or perhaps some other specific market) is interesting

That book I mentioned, The Tiger Rugs of Tibet by Mimi Lipton - although much more expert folks than I have pointed out some 'flawed assumptions' (for want of a better word) contained within - has arguably the best collection of photos of Tibetan tiger rugs there is. It is certainly THE book on Tibetan tiger rugs, although the caveat above applies it seems. Photos are alone worth the cos though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Larkin (Post 23000)
It is evident that the various design elements are part of a specific tradition, as reflected for example in the middle one of the three pieces you posted. In that regard, by the way, I had owned it for quite a while before I came to realize it represented a tiger pelt. Before that discovery, I had been working on a theory that had the wiggily stripes as some sort of sea creature, the spine down the middle a feeding trough, and the outer border a vast, foaming ocean. All I can say about that is, speculative research can be extremely dangerous. :vomit: :eek: :thumbsdown: :sherlock:

:batman: :nerd2: :laughing_1: :thumbsup:

Kay Dee September 10th, 2017 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Larkin (Post 23004)
… Another point of interest is the design color of the central field against the yellow background. I call it stone green, and I have not found it in any other rug. The places featuring the color are uniformly lower than the surrounding yellow. I have surmised that the dye was corrosive, resulting in that effect; but I imagine the pile in those areas could have been clipped shorter intentionally….

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre Galafassi (Post 23001)
I agree with your hypothesis. It seems, to me too, much more likely that the clipping was intentional.

Agreed, from the photo at least, that is without eyeballing the rug 'in hand'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre Galafassi (Post 23001)
I believe that greens were nearly always obtained by successive dyeing with indigo (vat-dyeing) and with one of the many natural yellows available, mostly applied by *alum-mordant dyeing.

Gents, re my now bolded / underlined above in Rich's intro, what are we talking about here being 'stone green', the tiger stripes, or..................? :baffled:

A couple more examples;

The horizontal (Chinese) fragment purported to be from 16c. The other two are Tibetan 'top' saddle rugs, supposedly c1900 or before.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/922/XwZSvr.jpg

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/923/PnRKbe.jpg

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/923/aXGy5Z.jpg

Kay Dee September 10th, 2017 10:58 PM

stone green stripes?
 
Having changed computers and looked at your pics Rich on a big colour corrected screen then I have to assume it is the stripes that you are referring to as 'stone green', as especially the back shot and small front image they look a type of green colour that appeared blue on my laptop. Interesting.

Please correct me if my conclusion / assumption is wrong.

Rich Larkin September 10th, 2017 11:08 PM

Hi Kay,

Quote:

Gents, re my now bolded / underlined above in Rich's intro, what are we talking about here being 'stone green', the tiger stripes, or.................. ?
Initially, I was referring to the tiger stripes in my mat as "stone green." (This was not based on any tradition in rug literature, but only on what I knew about certain stones. Usually, they need to be damp, with maybe a little moss in the equation.:))

Besides that, there is a different, lighter color familiar to hard core ruggies that usually appeared in old Ferahan rugs. According to at least two well regarded authors/scholars, that color was known traditionally in Iran among rug people as ab-i-sangar, which literally means "stone blue" (in Farsi), but which is in fact more green than blue. I posted a bagface that features what I think is a version of the ab-i-sangar though it is brighter, if that is the right word, than the usual Ferahan rendition. In terms of color value, the Ferahan green has more gray in it than the light green in my bagface. As I mentioned in my post to Pierre, that color in my piece (in the central border) is closer to the Ferahan in the upper section than the lower. The close-up shots in my post are from the lower section.

Keep in mind that the color in my bagface and in the old Ferahan rugs does not involve the use of indigo. We are agreeing that my Chinese tiger stripes do involve indigo with some form of yellow.

BTW, if that tiger pelt pattern is a feature of old Tibetan weavings, I would suspect my Chinese mat was woven in imitation of the pattern.

Rich

Kay Dee September 11th, 2017 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Larkin (Post 23011)
BTW, if that tiger pelt pattern is a feature of old Tibetan weavings, I would suspect my Chinese mat was woven in imitation of the pattern.

Thanks for you reply / clarification to my question (but I did more or less figure it out when I changed computers and saw it in a different light so to speak, no pun intended). :fez:

Now re your above though; note that the term 'old' in a Tibetan carpet context does not mean OLD, it generally means - although there are a few now (carbon dated) older examples - something made in the 1800's (although there are other Tibetan rugs that do appear earlier also). However, other than the (very) few carbon dated ones, the earliest physical proof of the age of a Tibetan rug is only from the late 1800s, as the two (IIRC) were either donated to museums soon after they were bought in Tibet and the person returned home (to UK and USA IIRC), or when donated later there was physical proof of their provenance as it were.

PS. When looked at very closely, can you see any indication of wear, however slight, across the center of your rug as it were (that would indicate it may have laid long-length-ways across a saddle) which would indicate it being a top saddle rug? (Even without the wear in that area, given the dimensions, that's what I think it was made / intended for originally. But hey, I could be wrong, have been before and no doubt will be again I expect. :rainy_day: )

Rich Larkin September 11th, 2017 12:53 PM

Hi Kay,

Quote:

When looked at very closely, can you see any indication of wear, however slight, across the center of your rug as it were (that would indicate it may have laid long-length-ways across a saddle) which would indicate it being a top saddle rug?
There is no wear pattern of that nature. I have never thought my mat was a saddle rug. It is of light character as a fabric, not the stout sort of weave I associate with Tibetan rugs. Also, I would think small Chinese mats of this general size category are not unusual. In fact, when I got this one, I also acquired another Chinese mat of a heavier texture (and different weave) only slightly bigger...maybe 2' X 4'.

BTW, the comparison of the 16th century fragment you posted with these other tiger models is interesting. The squiggly in the frag has a very distinctive shape, especially in the lower section, that can't be an accident. I don't want to be a troublemeker, but do we hear any support for the Loch Ness Monster? :devil:

Rich

Pierre Galafassi September 11th, 2017 07:07 PM

Hi Rich and Kay,

You are right, guys, I forgot the stone green, stone blue and celadon green.


I haven’t seen a chemical analysis of any of these dyes yet, but it is indeed likely that a copper mordanted wool, dyed with one of many natural yellows like weld (Reseda lutea), isparak (Delphinium zalil) or dyer’s broom( Genista tinctoria) etc..may have been a key component of this Persian- and perhaps Chinese gamut of shades, going from greenish yellow to almond green, via kaki and greenish grey. All rather pale shades.
I suppose that a base of very pale indigo dyed- or Saxon blue (*) dyed wool was part of most recipes too (note please that in pale shades an indigo blue is quite greenish. The deeper the indigo shade the redder it goes).

Some years ago, I played with these natural yellows and copper salts as mordant (or co-mordant, with alum as main mordant) in my little cottage lab.

It appeared that even with a lab equipment vastly superior to what our ancestors used (including a pH-meter, an analytical scale, and a thermostat- controlled lab dyeing vessel), the shades obtained with this method were quite unpredictable.
Then, the choice of the yellow dye also strongly influences the dyeing outcome. Isparak, for example, is quite likely to lead to a kaki without warning.
Not to mention the Damocles sword of fibre degradation, under light exposure, when the amount of copper in the fiber is excessive, or when the final rinsing is insufficient to eliminate the excess of copper ions.

This experience led me to suppose that this dyeing method must have had a limited success with dyers and weavers, except of course the odd Kamikaze.

While we are at Asian- blues and greens on wool, there are two more rare birds, perhaps worth mentioning:

Dyer’s bugloss, (Alkanna tinctoria) can be cajoled into yielding various shades of dullish blue, which together with natural yellows are potential sources for almond- or celadon greens too (reasonable fastness).
Not an easy dyeing method though and the necessity to use a water/alcohol dye-bath may have been a strong deterrent (or a strong motivator:cheers:). It seems that some Turkmen dyers still know today its dyeing potential. One of my rugs has a bit of violet, dyed with Alkanna.

19th century visitors of China spoke of Lo Kao, a beautiful, natural emerald-green dye. Awfully expensive, it was probably used mainly for Imperial textiles (nearly exclusively silk of course, but the dye worked for wool too). Some French chemist tried to identify the molecule as a first step for its industrial production, but were stopped in their tracks by the boom of synthetic dyes. IMHO Lo-Kao may have been a natural indigoid molecule, perhaps extracted from a Chinese variety of Rhamnus.
It is not very likely that this dye found its way in plebeian wool rugs.

Note:
(*) Saxon Blue, a sulfonated indigo molecule, yielding a rather greenish shade of blue, was used in Occident since the 18th century. It may have been imported in India/China on ships of the East India Company.

Rich Larkin September 12th, 2017 03:30 AM

Hi Pierre,

That is fascinating information, not the least of which is the fact that results with the use of copper salts in the mordant could be very unpredictable. In years past, I had experience with a number of the so-called Ferahans with the ab-i-sangar or stone green. It was a very distinctive and recognizable shade, suggesting that some dyers evidently had a keen understanding of how to get what they wanted. In addition, though the color showed some erosion, it was rarely if ever severe, as is often the case with the old, corrosive black/brown.

I also saw a number of what I would consider Hamadan rugs that included the 'stone green' color, most often as the ground color of the border (as was the case with most of the Ferahans as well). These Hamadan-type rugs (i. e., single-wefted on cotton foundations) were often in sizes I considered "old school," such as 6' X 12'. Of course, the Ferahan area is not far from one sector of the Hamadan weaving area.

Thanks for the thorough review.

Rich

Kay Dee September 12th, 2017 08:04 AM

First, THANKS Pierre for all that wonderful dying info!:cheers:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Larkin (Post 23020)
There is no wear pattern of that nature. I have never thought my mat was a saddle rug. It is of light character as a fabric, not the stout sort of weave I associate with Tibetan rugs.

Well I wasn't saying it was Rich, just asking if any tell-tale signs showed it may have been (used as such). :duel:

See below several examples of 'top' saddle rugs, two Tibetan (top) and one rather old Chinese Ningxia (bottom), and note the 'center' deterioration in all three where it rubs on the wooden saddle. However, if a rug is not used often (as a top saddle rug), this wear can be so minor / subtle it can't really be seen in a photo (so hence my question). :)

Now one of those Tibetans' below is a Wangden / Wangdan made / weave (the top one, with similar dimensions to yours), and rather OLD (in Tibetan terms) to boot. Not sure if you know much about these type of rugs, but you only have to look sideways at some and threads start falling out, literally. :cry: So the type of weave, i.e. light, heavy or Wangden seemingly makes / made no or little difference if used as a top saddle rug or not. The Ningxia is rather light but given it and its accompanying bottom saddle rug's age (a very rare set for this genre! :money:), it could just be from being 'worn down'.

By the way, how many KPSI does yours have (and yes, I realise KPSI has very little bearing when talking Chinese / Tibetan rugs, but just interested is all).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Larkin (Post 23020)
I don't want to be a troublemeker, but do we hear any support for the Loch Ness Monster? :devil: Rich

Damn, your right! Nessie existed after all! (BTW, good catch Rich, no pun intended.) :laughing_1:


http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/924/Vkoczy.jpg

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/924/lBQEkZ.jpg

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/923/yh8djQ.jpg

Rich Larkin September 12th, 2017 12:29 PM

Hi Kay,

I misunderstood your description of the typical wear from saddle use.

If you count down the roundels along the spine of the rug from the top, there is wear across the rug, mostly on the left side, between #s 8-10.

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tel..._Chin_full.jpg

Would you consider that to be evidence of saddle wear? The location of it seems off judging from your three interesting examples. There isn't much wear elsewhere in the pile.

Rich

Kay Dee September 13th, 2017 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Larkin (Post 23032)
If you count down the roundels along the spine of the rug from the top, there is wear across the rug, mostly on the left side, between #s 8-10.

Would you consider that to be evidence of saddle wear? The location of it seems off judging from your three interesting examples. There isn't much wear elsewhere in the pile.

Short answer, no.

If that was on both sides, say where a riders knees or boots, etc, may have rubbed that area then more inclined to say 'maybe'. But not just on one side, and if rubbed there then should be some wear in the 'middle' from the saddle, however slight, which there appears not to be.

Kay Dee September 13th, 2017 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kay Dee (Post 22914)
You and Jeff have convinced me, book is on order. :party:

Edit: And yes, Pierre, THANKS for answering ALL my questions, and then some!

Well gents, Glanz der Himmelsöhne arrived and................. .................... was all you claimed and more, and so what if I can't read German, pics alone worth the price! :bravo:

Again, THANKS for the recommendation to both of you!:cheers:

Jeff Sun September 14th, 2017 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Larkin (Post 22973)
  • An interesting detail of the design appears in the detail shot. It is the single line of black within one of the tiger stripes. In fact, this stripe is along one edge of the field about half way up the rug. It consists of ten knots, and it is repeated exactly in a corresponding stripe on the opposite side of the field. The knots are black, not the deep blue found elsewhere in the rug. The black yarn does not occur anywhere else in the rug other than in those two stripes. The black lines are lower pile like the green areas adjoining them. Certainly, the thin black lines were incorporated intentionally. Does anyone know what the reason may have been? Identifying markers? Does this sort of talismanic feature appear often in other Chinese rugs?

Man...I go away for a little bit and all this fun happens!

Hi Rich-

Here is my postulation on the black stripes:

1. It's a mistake, accidental or purposeful. For example: the weaver ran out of yarn of one color and purposely made due with something else. They kept the symmetry so at least it looked balanced. This is my strong favorite.

2. It's a repair. Unlikely really. But maybe.

3. It is a marker...kind of like "snapping lines" in the carpentry trade. Rugs from Shaanxi often have periodic red weft threads that achieve this purpose.

4. The weaver was part of a hard rock band known as "The Black Stripes", not to be confused with "The White Stripes".

Take your pick!

Rich Larkin September 15th, 2017 02:40 AM

Hi Jeff,

Good to hear from you.

I think proposition #3 is closest to the answer. I don't favor the theory of the weaver running out of the color, because the black was used in place of the 'stone green;' but that color was evidently in full supply through the rest of the weaving. The repair theory is also unlikely, as the area surrounding the stripes is clearly original and in very sound condition. I would love to go for the rock band theory. I will have to apply to our friend, Paul Smith, for the musical research. :nerd: I have to think, though, that the stripes are some kind of marker for the weaver.

Jeff, from following your visits to these pages, I take it you are an enthusiastic observer of the antique rug markets in and around China. Is that so? If it is, have you encountered in older rugs the subtle clipping of surface designs into plain colored fields like the pale yellow border in my rug?

Rich

Marvin Amstey September 15th, 2017 01:11 PM

Rich
Here is a throneback from my collection, circa 1800, that has a lot of subtle clipping defining the waves at the bottom. If you enlarge the bottom of the image they become apparant

https://s6.postimg.org/fras5w07l/Nin...circa_1800.jpg

Kay Dee September 15th, 2017 01:56 PM

Nice!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvin Amstey (Post 23076)
Here is a throneback from my collection, circa 1800, that has a lot of subtle clipping defining the waves at the bottom.

NICE (and somewhat unusual, with only the two dragons) throne-back Marvin! :bravo:

Jeff Sun September 15th, 2017 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Larkin (Post 23062)
Hi Jeff,

Good to hear from you.

I think proposition #3 is closest to the answer....

Hi Rich

To paraphrase rug scholar William Martin Joel:

"You may be right.
I may be crazy.
But these just might be the kind of rugs you're looking for."


Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Larkin (Post 23062)
Jeff, from following your visits to these pages, I take it you are an enthusiastic observer of the antique rug markets in and around China. Is that so? If it is, have you encountered in older rugs the subtle clipping of surface designs into plain colored fields like the pale yellow border in my rug?

Yes...I've spent some time rifling through stacks of rugs in and around China. I would agree with Kay that it does look like it is carved. I have encountered some such carved rugs. Some, as in few. Carving was done earlier than most people think, but clearly became more prominent in the 20th century, doubtlessly aided by the use of electrical sheers and clippers and a sense of fashion. So that the rug is carved, doesn't necessarily mean it is "new". Certainly not "third quarter of the 20th century".

And regardless of it's age, it is a super nice rug. 5 stars. The "Fish-Scale" border I like very much and have not seen that pattern executed in that way.

Also, I feel there is a thread on the "carving" topic somewhere....

Rich Larkin September 15th, 2017 03:52 PM

Thanks, Marvin. Is the preferred method of enlargement to transfer it to Photoshop and pump it up? Or is there a more esoteric method that preserves or enhances quality?

Nice throneback, too!

Jeff,

Thanks for the cogent comments.

BTW,

Quote:

To paraphrase rug scholar William Martin Joel:

"You may be right.
I may be crazy.
But these just might be the kind of rugs you're looking for."
:rofl: :laughing_1: :laughing_2: :rofl: :laughing_1: :laughing_2: :rofl: :laughing_1: :laughing_2: :rofl: :laughing_1: :laughing_2:

:bravo: You can never go wrong invoking Billy Joel!!

Marvin Amstey September 15th, 2017 05:50 PM

Photoshop works.

Kay Dee September 23rd, 2017 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvin Amstey (Post 23086)
Photoshop works.

I have found that a 72dpi web rug image can usually be 'pumped up' to 125dpi (thus automatically increasing width and height also) without any / òr at worst very very little loss of quality in most, while some others may need a little more tweaking to get 'clear / sharp'. Much bigger than 125 and they seem to start 'falling apart' / blurring up.

However I also collect WWII naval photos, and oddly (if 72 to start with) they dont like to go higher than 100dpi before starting to 'fall aprt'.

I guess a lot depends on what one finds accepatable though.

Does anyone have any other PS tricks they'd like to share?

Jeff Sun September 27th, 2017 02:59 AM

Hi Lloyd,

Back to your rug for a minute. The the book discussion earlier in this thread lead me to buy From the Land of the Snow Lion. On page 80 of this book, Elena Tsarev talks about the rare usage of Carving Effect and Sculpturing in Tibetan rugs.

1. Carving effect is a natural process caused by the uneven wear of differently dyed, or different quality of yarns. The end result, over time is pile of slightly different heights. This is most often seen on high end monastic rugs, because a commissioned rug weaver could draw from several sources as they saw fit. In contrast, most homemade rugs only use one type of wool...whatever was wandering around the pasture most likely.

2. Weavers must have been pretty quick to catch on that the carving effect made some designs really stand out in 3 dimensions.Sculpturing (her term) is what we have been calling carving. This is a trim done by hand to achieve the same effect as natural carving. An imitation if you will.

Well, that's Tsarev's hypothesis anyway. Who knows what the weaver's actual motivation was. Probably just to make it look good.

Having already determined from the weave that your rug is not Tibetan, but given the Tiger skin motif, and general excellent quality, it could have been made for the Tibetan market, specifically, the Tibetan monastic market. And of course either Carving Effect or Sculpturing could apply to your rug.

Tsarev mentions that the way to tell the difference between the two effects is that tufts subject to carving effect will all be equal, where as hand done sculpturing will be a gradual fade. To be plain, she mixes her terminology at the end, but I think that is what she meant to say.

As from the pics it looks like the effected outline is only a couple of pile tufts wide, I would say it is likely Carving Effect rather than Sculpture. Not much room for gradual fade in such a small space.

Discuss amongst yourselves ( insert sheep, yak and cashmere goat emoji here).

Kay Dee September 27th, 2017 10:09 AM

Scupltured rug
 
That 'Land of Snow Lion' is a great book, eh Jeff! Really is one of the three I consider the very best on said subject.

Anyway, here is a pic of a sculptured rug owner claims is Tibetan (which it isn't) and circa 1900, but I doubt that 'fact' to. :rant:

However, it shows well the sculpturing / incising technique intentionally done.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/923/3dtcac.jpg

Jeff Sun September 27th, 2017 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kay Dee (Post 23183)
That 'Land of Snow Lion' is a great book, eh Jeff! Really is one of the three I consider the very best on said subject.

Anyway, here is a pic of a sculptured rug owner claims is Tibetan (which it isn't) and circa 1900, but I doubt that 'fact' to. He :rant:

However, it shows well the sculpturing / incising technique intentionally done.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/923/3dtcac.jpg

Good example on sculpting.Considerin g it Looks like a Tianjin or Beijing fragment from the last 50 years, sculpting is to be expected.

Rich Larkin September 28th, 2017 01:19 PM

Hi Folks,

The little (Beijing?) mat is a good example of the sort of 'sculpting' I was referring to. I have handled a few of these. The overall weight and weave character of them is quite different from the piece I posted in frame #57 of this thread, and the degree of sculpting is much more subtle than the Beijing type.

Rich

Rich Larkin September 28th, 2017 03:24 PM

Hi Folks,

Since we are beating this topic into the ground, it is only fitting that I do my part. This little (ca. 2'+ X 4'+) mat features some (presumably) clipped sculpting. It doesn't show very clearly on the screen, but the middle image gives the idea. The clipping is at the color separations on that lantern, or vase, or whatever it is.

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tel..._Chin_full.jpg

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tel..._Chin_det2.jpg

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tel...in_det_bk2.jpg

I note (with regret) the inconsistency of the color fidelity from image to image. The most accurate is the middle image, though its tone is just a tick towards the version of the light blue of the bottom image. There is a slight color shift as between the front and back, but it is not nearly as pronounced as it appears here.

I take the rug to be a rural product. There is a modest amount of hair ("kemp") in the pile, giving it a different texture than one finds in the more conventional Chinese product with clipping around the designs. Furthermore, the light blue was absorbed unevenly by the yarn, resulting in the heathered effect shown in the middle image. I assume this was the result of the manner in which the wool was prepared for dyeing.

It happens I acquired the piece (about 45 years ago) at the same time I acquired the tiger pelt patterned mat I posted earlier. In fact, I was only going for the blue mat immediately above, having been mezmerized by the heather field; but the elderly dealer from whom I was buying, who had been serving as something of a rug mentor for me at the time, reached into a stack and pulled out the tiger stripe number, saying, "Here, you want this one too," adding it to the bill. I was concerned I didn't have the dough :money:, being in school at the time, but I was too embarrassed to object. I lacked the wit at the time to realize he was doing me a big favor. Anyway, I came up with the cash, and it all turned out well. :)

I believe the red dye shown in the rug no longer appears in Chinese rugs, the rights having been purchased by the Kool-Aid soft drink people. :fez: Dye-crank that I am, I don't really mind. It hasn't bled, and I am careful to keep the rug out of the bathtub.

Rich


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