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-   -   Bag with replaced ends (http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=3648)

Joel Greifinger August 30th, 2016 04:45 PM

Quote:

The undepressed knots are symmetric, ruling out an Afshar provenance.
Hi Pat,

In his monograph on Afshar rugs in Kerman, Tanavoli writes, "Afshars dye their wefts red. The range is from light rose to dark brown...The knots on Afshar rugs are usually symmetrical." He also notes that the warps of Afshar rugs can be fully depressed, "semidepressed" or flat. One of the most common descriptions of the degree of depression on pile rugs and bags shown in the book is "almost flat". I don't think that we can rule out Afshar for your bag face on those structural grounds.

Quote:

There are no offset knots to indicate a Kurdish origin.
Since some groups of Kurdish weavers don't tend to use offset knotting, I don't think we should put them out of the running, either.

Joel

Chuck Wagner August 30th, 2016 05:02 PM

Joel,

I think even with Afshar it gets a bit complex; village Afshar pieces often have asymmetrical knots, open right with red or pink wefts. The pieces made in more rustic settings are almost always symmetrical with far more variation in foundation materials, as noted by Tanavoli.

Funny, when I saw the back it reminded me of the bag I have in another thread:

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/ub07.jpg


Regards
Chuck

Joel Greifinger August 30th, 2016 05:36 PM

Quote:

I think even with Afshar it gets a bit complex
Chuck,

Agreed.

Tanavoli devotes a section of the book to "Afshar Rugs with the Asymmetrical (Persian) Knot". It begins, "The presence of a small percentage of Afshar rugs with the asymmetrical (Persian) knot deserves some discussion." He gives some credence to Edwards's ethnically-based theory that these are produced by Persian speaking villagers although he also cites examples of Turkish-speaking weavers who identify as Afshar using the Persian knot.

Quote:

village Afshar pieces often have asymmetrical knots, open right
None of the asymmetrically-knotted pieces in Tanavoli's sample were open right. I can't remember seeing any Afshar ASR pieces either. :baffled:

Joel

Chuck Wagner August 30th, 2016 06:15 PM

Joel,

Interesting. I have seen a few with open right knots. This (below) is one I own - unless someone wants to suggest a different attribution. Maybe the asymmetry of village Afshars is variable as well. I have to wonder if the geographic dispersion of the Afshar groups helped complicate the picture:

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/afsh1.jpg


http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/afsh2.jpg


http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/afsh3.jpg


Regards
Chuck

Rich Larkin August 30th, 2016 06:22 PM

Hi Folks,

There is no doubt about it for me that rugs tagged "Afshar" in the trade exhibit the widest range of weaving characteristics and styles of any other group. Why this is so, I can't say (Edwards's Persian speaker theory, etc.).

I have the greatest respect for Edwards, but it is a fact that there are a few whoppers in his book in terms of fundamental statements about some rugs. He died just short of finishing the book, and his widow pulled it all together, so that could be a factor. Beyond that, I have the sense that he had his strengths and weaknesses developed over many years in Iran in the business; and that his strengths were more towards the workshop-produced material, and less towards the rustic production. So, some of what he said in the interest of a volume that would be comprehensive as regards the Persian Carpet could have been based on second hand dealer lore.

Anyway, getting back to the Afshar, you could put eight or ten rugs or bags on the floor that are generally alleged to be Afshar, and each one wouldn't look like much of close kin to the others. As to Patrick's interesting piece, I don't get the feeling that it is Afshar, though that weave is very much like a certain strain of them. It's mostly the palette that gives me pause. But one thing is undeniable, that it has partially depressed warps. It shows very plainly from the shot of the back, in which every other vertical line of nodes is prominent. It has that "corded" look. I have a khorjin quite like it in that respect, but with light pinkish wefts and a completely different palette (in a well-known Afshar design).

A note about who might have used the "Turkish" (i. e., symmetrical) knot. It isn't absolutely necessary that Turkic ancestry dictates use of that knot. For starters, many Turkoman weavers employed the asymmetrical knot. The Afshars descended from Turkoman stock. In addition, it is likely that large segments of the Iranian population that had not been particularly active as rug weavers in the 19th century took up the craft (possibly reviving an old family or clan tradition at the time) in the production boom of the latter part of the 19th century. It is quite conceivable that some of them affiliated themselves with nearby weavers who happened to be Persian knot users in the process of picking up the skill. This could well have happened at a place like Kerman, where there was reportedly more continuous indigenous pile rug weaving going on through the 19th century than in other parts of Iran at that time. It may be that Edwards's explanation of the distribution of AS and SY Afshar rugs among the villages in the Kerman area represented a simplification of the actual operative dynamic.

Rich

Rich Larkin August 30th, 2016 06:30 PM

Hi Chuck,

Great pic!! I take it the knots pointing down towards your thumb are pointing towards the bottom of the rug. (There are some suspicious-looking nodes at the base of the pile along the upper line of that trough as well.)

Note that the back reflects slightly depressed warps.

Rich

Chuck Wagner August 30th, 2016 06:35 PM

Hi

Agree with Rich that the palette, at least, at first glance seems pretty dark for what is usually considered northern Afshar; it seems like a south Persian palette.

There are a lot of dark ground Afshar bags out there, but mostly with blue, and not brown, fields.

But, having re-read the initial post, I am now confused. So:

Pat - what is the nature of the original warp ?

Rich - yes, you are correct, pile goes down and right from the nodes. It's easiest to see with the white knot to the right of, and adjacent to, the red knot.

Regards
Chuck

Rich Larkin August 30th, 2016 06:58 PM

Yes, it's an excellent illustration of the Persian Knot (called "asymmetrical knot by New Age historians). That's a tougher one to get effectively in a photo as compared with the symmetrical version. I need to save the pic for future reference.

Patrick Weiler August 31st, 2016 04:05 AM

Most of the piece has flat warps but there is some warp depression in other areas. The general impression is of undepressed warps as can readily be seen in the blue and yellow border in the close up below. The warps are completely covered by the knots so it is not possible to determine their properties without disassembling the piece.
It looks nothing like any Afshar, Khamseh, Qashqai, Luri or Baluch that I have ever handled. It is thick, "chunky", heavy, and "meaty beaty big and bouncy" as the album of that name by The Who was titled.
It may be another case of an urban rug weaver making a saddlebag, rather than a tribal bag. It has a thick, dense pile - like an unworn Heriz. As noted previously, the condition is practically perfect, which makes it all the more curious that a chunk of the sides was cut off and attached to the top and bottom. The blue/yellow border stripe eliminates the possibility that this was part of a larger rug, and it is way too narrow, even with a wide border, to have been a runner.
:baffled:
Patrick Weiler

Chuck Wagner August 31st, 2016 06:30 AM

Hi Pat, et al.,

While mulling over my incomplete satisfaction with an Afshar attribution for Pat's bag, something came to mind, namely:

Rule #1 For Persian Bag Attribution

..which is..

If it has a dark palette and you don't know where it's from, it's from Varamin.

Varamin Kurd goods, and Bakhtiati-Lor goods both have symmetrical knots, and this particular brown is common in stuff from the Varamin area.

I don't find a good analog for the open botehs, but the rendering is consistent with the often rather simplistic rendereing of designs from Varamin as well.

I have Tanavoli's book on Varamin; I'll scan a couple representative images tomorrow.

Regards
Chuck

Joel Greifinger August 31st, 2016 12:28 PM

Quote:

It is 16"x14" (40cm x 35cm) with two dark gray-brown wefts
Chuck,

Quote:

If it has a dark palette and you don't know where it's from, it's from Varamin.
Even if it's double-wefted? :baffled:

Joel

Chuck Wagner August 31st, 2016 04:10 PM

Joel,

I have two bags that I can confidently call Veramin; both are mixed pile and flatweave (weft substitution, extra weft wrapping, etc.) styles. The pile sections on both are double-wefted. I suspect that, particularly with Varamin Kurds and Bakhtiaris, double-wefted would be the rule rather than the exception.

Regards
Chuck

Patrick Weiler August 31st, 2016 08:33 PM

Take a Seat
 
I was looking for something that looks like my bag face, and it turns out that I was sitting on it all along. Here is a Jaf Kurd bag that has some similar colors, including dark brown pile, nearly identical construction as viewed from the back, and similar thick symmetric knots. I use it as a seat cover for the recliner in my living room.

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/brown6.jpg

Here, I have placed the brown bag on top of the Jaf.

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/brown5.jpg

They look like they could be cousins. Notice also, on the Jaf, the minor border stripes of blue and red knots at either side of the white border with diamonds. They look similar to the blue and yellow border on the brown bag, but the Jaf has two knots side-by-side and the brown bag only has single knots. In the case of the brown bag, there may have been a red border between the current side border and the now-repurposed top and bottom red and white borders.

Patrick Weiler

Chuck Wagner August 31st, 2016 11:15 PM

Hi Pat,

Here are a few images of another Jaf Kurd bag with similar, but larger, dashed minor borders (yours are from a single knot; each dash on mine is four). The weave has some similarities but the knots are packed down harder on mine. I have to admit that when I first saw the dashed borders I first thought NW Persia/Caucasus. The pile on this one is much shorter and flatter than on yours, even where it's not worn.

I am accustomed to seeing long pile on Kurdish rugs, but not so used to it on bags (maybe a personal problem), which is another reason I have been leaning toward Afshar. Still, similarities in borders and palette are clear (note brown medallion outlines and details on mine). And, the brown wefts are a consideration, but not unknown on rustic Afshar work. You could buy me a beer or two and then I'll could easily sway toward Kurd again. :cheers:

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/JKUR00.jpg


http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/JKUR12.jpg


http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/JKUR26.jpg



Also, for Joel, a Varamin Kurd bag for his perusal:

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/Verabag01.jpg

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/Verabag03.jpg

Joel Greifinger September 1st, 2016 01:03 AM

Quote:

I suspect that, particularly with Varamin Kurds and Bakhtiaris, double-wefted would be the rule rather than the exception.
Chuck,

My assumption was based on Tanavoli's statement that the pile weavings of all the Varamin weaving groups were typically single-wefted. In addition to his own field work, I think that he might have based this on a survey of 113 Varamin weavings that Michael Craycraft had published in Oriental Rug Review in which 83% of the pile pieces were single-wefted. My own small sample of a few Varamin pieces are single-wefted, too.

Joel

Chuck Wagner September 1st, 2016 03:42 PM

Hi Joel,

I saw that in his Varamin book. He does reference Craycraft in his comments about pile rugs. In the section on storage bags he explicitly notes Kurd bags as single wefted, a tradition brought in from the western Kurd construction (without an external reference, so presumably from personal observation).

This comment confused me. My comment was based mainly on my own experience; I have about a dozen Kurdish pieces, including the Varamin piece. All are double wefted. The two Bakhtiari-Lor Varamin bags aren't really comparable in my opinion, because the symmetrical knots at the bottom are tied into the plainweave base fabric. However, if Craycraft and Tanavoli included such examples in their statistics, that would explain a lot.

Here are a few of mine; note that the knots on the third example are barely packed together at all:

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/kfl01.jpg

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/kch1.jpg


http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/kkb1.jpg


http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/ks1.jpg


http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/kl1.jpg

Regards
Chuck

Joel Greifinger September 1st, 2016 07:01 PM

Quote:

In the section on storage bags he explicitly notes Kurd bags as single wefted, a tradition brought in from the western Kurd construction (without an external reference, so presumably from personal observation).

This comment confused me. My comment was based mainly on my own experience; I have about a dozen Kurdish pieces, including the Varamin piece. All are double wefted.
Hi Chuck,

When Tanavoli wrote, "Single-wefting was probably introduced to Varamin by the western Kurds", I interpreted it to refer specifically to its origin in Kurdish groups in the area near Kermanshah (Kolya'i and others) that typically weave single-wefted rugs. Two of the Kurdish clans in Varamin originated in Kermanshah.

Other than the single-wefted but also quite distinctive Senneh rugs, other Kurdish pile weaving tends to be double-wefted.

Joel

Chuck Wagner September 2nd, 2016 02:33 AM

Hi Joel,

OK, thank you for clarifying. I guess I haven't knowingly handled any pieces from that area. Sorry I cluttered up the thread. Please post am image or two if you have one handy.

Regards
Chuck

Patrick Weiler September 2nd, 2016 04:18 PM

Boteh Quota?
 
Chuck,

I really like your little chanteh. I will rummage around through the bunker to see if I can find one like it.
Meanwhile, speaking of the skeletal boteh form, here is one from a runner of likely NW Persian origin. Rugs like these were probably as ubiquitous as the American Sarouk from the 20's to the 50's.

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/brown7.jpg

But instead of resting quietly in the little-used living room, they were on the front lines of wear and tear; the corridors, entryways and halls, trodden upon daily, wasting away to threads and discarded as they outlived their usefulness.
The basic design is similar to the brown bag, with a "vase" at the bottom from which springs a "tree", with globes or buds rising along the sides to the crest at the top with a lazy, drooping tip.
This runner also has side borders with the now-familiar single two-color dashed column minor border on either side of the main border, of symmetric knots with no warp depression. This minor border transitions along the top and bottom to the double-dashed lines seen here - no there are no offset knots. As I conjectured earlier, this bag may have derived from the workshop weavers "day job" of making rugs and runners. I have seen small pillow-sized Bijar pieces made by the families who weave the larger rugs, made for personal use. A local rug cleaning business owner visited Iran a decade ago and acquired one of these pillow faces. It would not be unlikely for professional rug weavers to make pillows or bags for use at home, which would be a reasonable explanation for the remarkably good condition of the small brown bag.

Patrick Weiler

Egbert Vennema September 2nd, 2016 07:11 PM

Bag with replaced ends.
 
Hi guys ,to me it looks a little like a piece from the Kelardasht region. Best, Egbert. :cheers:


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