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-   2. Geometric Rugs in Early Renaissance Paintings (http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/forumdisplay.php?f=41)
-   -   Renaissance reminiscences in Caucasian weavings? (http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1184)

Yohann Gissinger December 11th, 2011 06:48 PM

Renaissance reminiscences in Caucasian weavings?
 
Hello to all,

http://www.turkotek.com/old_masters/FIG60.jpg

http://www.turkotek.com/old_masters/sisla_1.jpg

http://www.turkotek.com/old_masters/sisla_2.jpg

Pictures from: http://rjohnhowe.wordpress.com/2011/...es-brought-in/

Best regards,
Y:)

Pierre Galafassi December 11th, 2011 08:03 PM

Hi Yohann,

Not likely to find reminiscences of Spanish Renaissance in nineteenth century South Caucasus IMHO.:angelic:

Coincidence?

Indication that similar motifs existed in the Islamic portfolio in the 14-15 th century and
1) travelled to Al Andalus and
2) survived in Caucasus until the 19th century?

For sure the analogy is puzzling.

Amitiés
Pierre

Yohann Gissinger December 11th, 2011 10:26 PM

Hello Pierre,

I should probably entitle the thread differently.
I didn't want to mean that the spanish (european) renaissance had such an influence on the XIXth c. rugs in south caucasus of course! I used the european renaissance as a chronology reference only.
In another hand, during the XVIth c. Spain was the most powerful country in Europe and maybe in the world...:angelic:

You can also note the progressive disappearance of the classical bestiary in painting. The knowledge is now diffusing due to the progress of books printing since Gutenberg. Universities and library are now beginning to rise in Europe (1500).


Amitiés,
Yohann

Filiberto Boncompagni December 12th, 2011 09:20 AM

Interesting, bravo Yohann.

Pierre,
Quote:

Not likely to find reminiscences of Spanish Renaissance in nineteenth century South Caucasus IMHO
Well, in “Rugs of the Lost Ark” (Salon 114), Horst Nitz made the hypotheses of a carpet motif carried by Spanish Jews to Caucasus…
Regards,

Filiberto

Yohann Gissinger February 24th, 2012 07:01 PM

Reminiscences of earlier examples?
 
Hello to all,

The square format and the field composition of the textiles illustrated below, drove me to some interesting things (I dare to think).

Even if the still existing examples I found on the web are later than the paintings, these pieces may lead us to conclude that the concerned weavings are not rugs and may have their origin somewhere in or around the Caucasus.

http://www.turkotek.com/old_masters/...embroidery.jpg
FIG 31 G. del Cossa. 1476-1484. Allegory of April, detail. Palazzo Schifanoia. Ferrara.


http://www.turkotek.com/old_masters/...roidery_RB.jpg
18th century Caucasian Embroidery Rippon Boswell Spring 2003 sale, 17th May 2003

http://www.turkotek.com/old_masters/...y_fragment.jpg
Iran 1700-1724 Plain weave cotton embroidered with silk in surface darning and running stitch, backed with plain weave cotton and faced with bias-cut silk.

Cf: Plate 10, p.107 in Jennifer Wearden in 'Azerbaijanian Embroideries: A Synthesis of Contrasts' in Hali Issue 59, October 1991 pp. 102-111.

This embroidery belongs to Group 2 as defined by Jennifer Wearden in ‘Azerbaijanian Embroideries: A Synthesis of Contrasts’ in Hali Issue 59, October 1991 pp. 102-111. Group 2 textiles are characterised by surface darning; if the colours are dark and strong the textiles may date from the early 18th century.
Source: V&A museum.



Concerning another painting:

http://www.turkotek.com/old_masters/...broidery_2.jpg
FIG 30 A. da Fabriano. 1474. Virgin and Child.Genga.

http://www.turkotek.com/old_masters/...embroidery.jpg
Azerbaijan 1740-1790 Plainweave cotton embroidered with silk in surface darning on the diagonal with running stitch for the outlining.

The ground is covered with cartouches alternated with eight-pointed stars like in the illustration above.

This textile belongs to Group 3 as defined by Jennifer Wearden in 'Azerbaijanian Embroideries: A Synthesis of Contrasts' in Hali, Issue 59, October 1991 pp. 102-111. Group 3 textiles are characterised by surface darning on the diagonal and date from the middle of the 18th century into the early part of the 19th century.
Source: V&A museum.

Best regards,
Y:)

Pierre Galafassi February 26th, 2012 12:03 PM

Interesting theory Yohann!

You are right, their small-, sometimes square format and their main apparent use for windowsill decoration could support your theory that at least some of these small "rugs" with simplified pattern, were embroideries. :thumbsup:

Velvets and brocades are plentiful in old masters paintings (much more frequent than rugs actually) and so were silk satin textiles and (obvious) embroideries. Many could have been woven in Europe (Venice, Lucca, Palermo etc..)

Could the following Renaissance paintings, FIG 1, FIG 2, FIG 3 also feature embroideries? I am a complete ignoramus in this field, but Marla Mallet, if she reads us, could perhaps give us her expert opinion.

http://www.turkotek.com/old_masters/E30.jpg
FIG 1: I. da Viterbio, 1393, 
St Francis preaching.
Porziunco la.

http://www.turkotek.com/old_masters/A2F0B.jpg
FIG 2:Anonymous. 1425-1440. British Library.
(Note the walking gooses. Hardly fitting for one of our modern Presidents (with a few exceptions of course) but apparently perfectly OK for a Renaissance King.)

http://www.turkotek.com/old_masters/A2F0B-2.jpg
FIG 3:Fra Angelico, 1420-1430, St Cosma & St Damiano on the pyre, Annalena altarpiece .

Besides, the analogy between your Rippon Boswell Caucasian embroidery and Del Cossa’s rug will win you the devotion of the strong and virulent sect of Caucasomaniacs, here on Turkotek, given the rarity of fourth- or fifteenth century paintings featuring a rug which could plausibly be ascribed to Caucasus.
Arguably, the following one, by Pinturicchio, could be such a rare bird too. (it is, apparently, a rug, but please note the strange fringes )

http://www.turkotek.com/old_masters/1475-1480.jpg
FIG 4. Pinturicchio, 1475-1480, Virgin and Child, National Gallery, London.

However Yohann, to really achieve sainthood- or prophet status here on Turkotek, you will have to bring us a painting featuring a credible fourteenth century Turkmen rug or, better still, l an extant one :angelic:!
Best regards,
Pierre

Filiberto Boncompagni February 26th, 2012 02:26 PM

:) As one (and probably the only one left) member of the formerly “strong and virulent sect of Caucasomaniacs” on Turkotek, I applaud the idea “that the concerned weavings are not rugs and may have their origin somewhere in or around the Caucasus”. :cheers:

Unfortunately :cry: , what’s lacking is the darned proof (excuse the pun) i.e. surviving Caucasian embroideries of that age or at least a document mentioning their use in Europe at the time.

The textiles in the paintings could probably be embroideries but they could have been locally made, though.
Regards,

Filiberto

Yohann Gissinger February 29th, 2012 12:50 PM

Pierre and Filiberto,

"The square format and the field composition of the textiles illustrated below, drove me to some interesting things (I dare to think)"

I meant, interesting because of the visual similarities!
Of course, I have no darned proof and I don't defend any caucasomaniac theory.
If only this could provocate some readers to post new (and better?) elements...

Best regards,
Y:)


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