Turkotek Discussion Forums

Turkotek Discussion Forums (http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/index.php)
-   Archived Show and Tell Threads (2017-Present) (http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/forumdisplay.php?f=55)
-   -   Yomut Chuval Frag Ronnie Sale 2 (http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=5405)

Michael Gordon Rosenthal January 15th, 2019 07:15 PM

Yomut Chuval Frag Ronnie Sale 2
 
This distressed chuval was one of my favorite items from the second Ronnie Newman sale at Skinners. My wife noted that it proves I'm a lunatic, and she could well be correct. I'm very interested in other's thoughts about it.

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/mike1.jpg

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/mike2.jpg

Steve Price January 15th, 2019 09:27 PM

Hi Mike

That's a fabulous piece; it shines through the wear and damage. I hope some of our incipient Turkomaniacs will notice the plump, well spaced main guls, the excellent drawing of the borders, and the balance of the colors.

I'm not at all confident about age attributions, but this one does have an air of great age about it.

Regards, and thanks for sharing it.

Steve Price

Joy Richards January 15th, 2019 10:58 PM

Understandable lunacy
 
For what it's worth, coming from me, I think it's absolutely gorgeous, and Steve's right. Its beauty shines through the wear and damage.

Marvin Amstey January 16th, 2019 02:07 PM

Steve said it all
My guess: circa 1800
Ronnie had a very good eye.
Enjoy!

Michael Gordon Rosenthal January 16th, 2019 05:26 PM

A Similar Example Detail
 
Thanks, Steve, Joy, and Marvin for your comments. Here's what I believe is a similar example for Reuben's Guls and Gols II:

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/mike3.jpg

I wonder if the minor guls indicate an Igdyr attribution?

Phil Bell January 16th, 2019 11:15 PM

Contrary to your Wife's opinion, I think this proves you very sane and that you have a great eye. It is beautiful and I would have bought it and asked the price afterwards.

Phil

Marvin Amstey January 16th, 2019 11:26 PM

Interesting question Michael.

I can find no examples of this minor gul when searching for Igdyr pieces in my books or in Google.
The more I was looking at all minor guls in Yomut (and subtribe) rugs, I came to the conclusion that the minor gul on your piece is a "dumbed down" version of the more common - and more detailed - minor guls. If that is correct, I would guess that your piece is younger than I thought, but this is not in keeping with the otherwise old age that is implied in your piece.
A new mystery:felix:

Chuck Wagner January 17th, 2019 12:50 AM

Marvin,

There is a compelling analog in Jurg Rageth's book Turkmen Carpets: A New Perspective, Vol. 1.

See plate 104, page 222 with an example of a Yomut rug attributed to the Gorgan/Atrek Plain or Astarabad.

It seems that late 18th - early 19th century is reasonable based on design similarities.

There is also a chuval example, less similar but the same date range; plate 82 on page 178.

Regards
Chuck

Michael Gordon Rosenthal January 18th, 2019 04:09 PM

Minor Gul Comparison
 
Chuck's analogy references make a strong argument.

It is also clear from the other period pieces that there is a regal quality in the 18th century pieces that is mostly absent in later work.

He's another 12 gul from Ronnie Newman that seems to be from about the same period, perhaps a bit later:

http://rugrabbit.com/Item/archaic-yo...hts-throughout

Michael Gordon Rosenthal January 19th, 2019 04:23 AM

Chuck's Reference Minor Gul (Detail) and Christie's Example
 
Here is a detail of one of the pages Chuck referenced. Clearly, this non=Chemeche is an early minor gul and directly relates to the minor gul of the chuval in this discussion. I believe this referenced gul is earlier since it has curvilinear elements at the tips of the guls, which would place it well into the 18th century. It would be nice to see other examples in main carpets and other weavings. The small rectangles in the field of the major guls relate to the Tekke major gul and would indicate a very early date.

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/mike4.jpg

Here is another main carpet example from Christies. Note that the minor border, small, alternating yellow and white square relate to the chuval as well:

https://www.christies.com/img/LotIma...h_century).jpg

Unregistered January 20th, 2019 06:12 PM

Chuval gul piece
 
My apologies for lack of being fully registered but i noticed mikes post. Thats a lovely chuval and id date it 1800 border guards are very similar to the christies main carpet. It bears an uncanny resemblance. I had the pleasure of owning the christies piece for a number of years and yours has a very similar feel. The rageth book and the example in the upfold collection show the same design elements. Certainly not a crazy purche

Steve Price January 20th, 2019 06:29 PM

Hi

Thanks for your comments.

Not being registered isn't a problem, but I'd be grateful if you overwrite the word "unregistered" in the User Name field with your name when you post.

Thanks.

Steve Price

Michael Gordon Rosenthal January 20th, 2019 07:57 PM

Christie's Example
 
The Christie's main carpet is a grand example of the Zenith of Turkmen weaving.


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:10 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.