Welcome to TurkoTek's Discussion Forums

Archived Salons and Selected Discussions can be accessed by clicking on those words, or you can return to the Turkotek Home Page. Our forums are easy to use, and you are welcome to read and post messages without registering. However, registration will enable a number of features that make the software more flexible and convenient for you, and you need not provide any information except your name (which is required even if you post without being registered). Please use your full name. We do not permit posting anonymously or under a pseudonym, ad hominem remarks, commercial promotion, comments bearing on the value of any item currently on the market or on the reputation of any seller. Turkotek Discussion Forums - Reply to Topic


Go Back   Turkotek Discussion Forums > Virtual Show and Tell > a tekke small rug

Virtual Show and Tell Just what the title says it is.

Thread: a tekke small rug Reply to Thread
Your Username: Click here to log in
Random Question
Title:
  
Message:

Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

Topic Review (Newest First)
February 18th, 2019 10:51 PM
John Carpenter
one more tekke small rug

Hi All,

This small Tekke rug is 41"46", and has 180 undepressed KPSI with a ratio of 1h:1.8v. All dyes are apparently natural. An apricot color used only on the bottom elem is somewhat faded from front to back; the other dyes are relatively unfaded. The pile is glossy, and the rug has a floppy handle as did the second rug I submitted. But unlike the second rug, which was very thin with 150 KPSI, this rug with its higher knot count also has a significantly deeper pile. I cannot find another example of a Tekke rug with this rug's main border and hope that other members can suggest possibilities for its origin.

Best regards,
John



January 30th, 2019 05:00 AM
John Carpenter Hi Chuck,

Well, I think you are spot on about the dating of this rug. From plates in Jourdan as well as Grote-Hasenbalg and other sources I would place its weaving right around 1900 or after. By the 1920s elements start disappearing from the guls and the presence of synthetics is even more frequent.

My comments about abrash in this rug reflect those of Jon Thompson about abrash on p.62 in his Oriental Carpets (1988). No flash was used for my photo, and there is no orange in this rug. The colors are fairly adequately represented with little exaggerated contrast. To be frank, I don't think this rug deserves more photos. It is, as you pointed out, a typical commercial product as most of the Tekke rugs of this period were.

Thankfully, I have but one more small rug to share, and I think you all will find it interesting. It may even precede or at least come early in the enormous commercial output exemplified by my first two offerings.

Regards,
John
January 28th, 2019 03:57 PM
Chuck Wagner John

It's tough to judge the colors in this image; I can't really distinguish between orange and pink - it seems to be a flash photo with a lot of contrast.

Maybe a few closer views would be helpful.

That said, such colors, and the basic appearance, appear (to me) to be more characteristic of commercial early 20th century pieces.

I don't have a copy of Grote-Hasenbalg; maybe a scan of a photo of the plate woul dbe helpful.

Regards
Chuck
January 25th, 2019 03:24 AM
John_Carpenter

I bought this rug because of its color which I think is its main asset. However, I appreciate the input of others. The color in this piece is brighter than in the photo. Possibly natural dyes were used, at least for the red, because of the kind of abrash which occurs throughout the field and borders. The pink may have been obtained through the use of a mordant other than that for the main color. The closest comparable and accurate color I could find in the literature is in Grote-Hasenbalg, Plate 87. His comments about the red color in his plate still hold today and are relevent to the rug in my photo.
January 15th, 2019 10:33 PM
John Carpenter Hi Chuck,

Thank you for uour helpful information. The most recent rug you illustrated gives me a better understanding of the way in which late Tekke guls underwent modifications in what I consider a progressive devolution, if you will, toward their detachment from tribal and cultural affiliations toward a more purely commercial use of traditional motifs. I wasn't concerned about the non-existence of examples comparable to my rug, but what those examples might disclose to illustrate the idea I proposed above. You and others may have noticed in the rug that I presented a progressive alteration, mostly out of design considerations, of the minor gul in the first three rows from the bottom. In the first row of half guls, the enclosing diamond has a design of archaic latchhooks in the otherwise typical enclosing diamond. The second row up keeps the gul and diamond but eliminates the latchhooks. From the third row on up, the minor gul is modified to exclude the patches of color on either side of the central motif which are found in nearly all earlier examples of this gul, one more example of an erosion of tradition in late Tekke pieces. The rug you illustrated is useful for showing what a truly crowded field looks like along with a color palette typical of later pieces. When I show two other Tekke pieces, I think they will disclose both some variety and survival of tradition in these small rugs.

Regards,
John
January 9th, 2019 02:52 PM
Chuck Wagner John

There are several currently for sale, all described as late 19th C to turn of the century.

We don't discuss items in the market; I post this image because you seem concerned that such examples may not exist; this should alleviate any concern:




Regards
Chuck
January 9th, 2019 08:07 AM
Filiberto Boncompagni Hi John,

Next time you post remember to sign-in first, otherwise your post will not appear until Steve or I approve it.
Regards.

Filiberto
January 9th, 2019 02:33 AM
Unregistered Hi Chuck,

I am quite familiar with the common occurrence of the minor gul in my rug. Perhaps I misinterpreted your initial remarks. I had thought that you were saying that the occurrence of the minor gul in my rug, often found as part of a major gul in Salor pieces (Thatcher, Plate 5), as a minor gul in Saryq pieces (Thatcher, Plate 6), and as a major gul in Tekke pieces (Jourdan, Plate 69 and Thatcher, Plate 13), also commonly occurs as a minor gul in Tekke pieces in conjunction with the typical Tekke gul as shown in my rug. You commented in your earlier posting, "...guls like those on your rug are often seen." Well, yes! So I requested a reference for information which documents the occurrence of the minor gul in my rug with the typical Tekke gul in my rug. Your response, while providing a lovely photo of a Salor piece, really did not respond to my request. I hope that I have made myself clearer and look forward to your response.

Regards,
John
January 8th, 2019 11:13 PM
Chuck Wagner John,

The most common implementation is in the center of a Tekke "turret" or "Salor" gul:



Regards
Chuck
January 7th, 2019 07:12 PM
John Carpenter
a tekke small rug

Hi Chuck,

At some point I will try to show some more detailed photos of the colors in this rug. But I have one more comment and a request. Concerning the minor gul, the reference I gave from Thatcher shows a gul similar to the one in this rug as the only gul in a rather old juval, no dating given. Anyway, the juval's gul has a diamond around it. Thanks again for pointing out that the use of the minor gul in the rug shown here is fairly common in conjunction with a typical tekke main gul. So, if possible, can you please give me a reference in the literature--a photograph would be great. I looked through my sources, but couldn't find one.

Regards,
John
January 3rd, 2019 03:47 PM
Chuck Wagner John,

Your assessment is correct, it is likely to be a mix of synthetics and perhaps a couple vegetal dyes, or possibly all synthetics.

A couple medium range and closeup images in good light (not fluorescent, and not in bright high-contrast sunlight) woull be somewhat instructive.

As our resident expert Pierre would explain, without a chemical analysis the answer can't be definitive.

I have an Afghan rug from the 1960's thaht has a very pleasant brown that one might judge to be a vegetal dye with the eye, but again, better living through chemistry...

Regards
Chuck
January 3rd, 2019 04:33 AM
Unregistered
a tekke small rug

Hi Chuck,

Thanks for the informative analysis. I have one more question. Is it possible to determine whether at least some of the colors in this rug are synthetic or not? I have some other Turkmen pieces where the colors are likely from natural dyes. But the dating of this rug and the light hue of the field color make me suspect that at best this rug may have a mixture of both natural and synthetically dyed wools.

Regards,
John
January 1st, 2019 08:04 PM
Chuck Wagner Hi John,

The colors, border motifs, and gul geometry (squared-off major guls) and spacing of this piece all point toward an early 20th century origin.

It is a loose but rather reliable rule for Turkmen work, that when the field designs appear crowded given the space available, it is likely a later piece.

The minor gul motif on your rug is found on such pieces (small to medium rugs) frequently enough so that it cannot be considered rare. But it is not typical. The chemche gul is by far the more common motif, but guls like those on your rug are often seen.

Yours is a bit unusual in that they are outlined with a diamond shaped line, which is uncommon, but for me, also points to a later date.

This motif is also seen as an internal element of the "Salor" style turret guls found on some Tekke and Saryk work.

Regards, and welcome to Turkotek,
Chuck Wagner
December 31st, 2018 04:54 AM
John Carpenter
a tekke small rug

Hello Steve and All,

As this is my first time contacting Turkotek, first things first: A Happy New Year filled with many blessings to All! My submission for your edification and amusement is this rug which I found at auction this past year. It's a Tekke, 41" 53" , with asymmetric knots averaging 150/inch sq., open to the right. ( Please help me improve this improvised description. ) It also has a not uncommon alternation of light and dark blues on the diagonal in its primary guls. The photo may not pick it up, but there are four distinct shades of red in this rug--two different shades in the elems, with one shade at the top and another shade at the bottom, along with two obviously different shades of red in the field. Other colors include white, red-brown, natural brown, and the aforementioned two shades of blue. The selvege cords are all there and unbroken with bits of the blue overcasting still present--all thanks to the machine overcasting which I carefully removed after a very thorough but delicate washing when no bleeding occurred. What interests me are the secondary guls on this rug. Are they typical for this kind of weaving? If this rug appears on the horizontal in your viewing, the bottom of the rug is on the right. Please note the secondary guls which begin at the bottom where ones cut in half in the first row undergo changes which appear in the second row of full secondary guls, proceeding to a further change in the third row of full secondary guls. All subsequent rows of secondary guls appear essentially unchanged. A published example of a similar but not quite identical gul to the one in the second row of secondary guls on this rug appears in Amos Thatcher's Turkoman Rugs, Plate 14. I think that is enough from me about this rug. Without ever intending to do so, I have managed to acquire four small Tekke rugs, two of which are nearly square. More comment than previously, usually rather condescending, seems to have appeared in the literature in recent years about this genre of Tekkes. So I hope some of you all will find my submission worth your attention and encourage me to share others with you.

With best regards,

John



Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.