Welcome to TurkoTek's Discussion Forums

Archived Salons and Selected Discussions can be accessed by clicking on those words, or you can return to the Turkotek Home Page. Our forums are easy to use, and you are welcome to read and post messages without registering. However, registration will enable a number of features that make the software more flexible and convenient for you, and you need not provide any information except your name (which is required even if you post without being registered). Please use your full name. We do not permit posting anonymously or under a pseudonym, ad hominem remarks, commercial promotion, comments bearing on the value of any item currently on the market or on the reputation of any seller. Turkotek Discussion Forums - Reply to Topic


Go Back   Turkotek Discussion Forums > Rugs and Old Masters: An Essay Series > 2. Geometric Rugs in Early Renaissance Paintings > Renaissance reminiscences in Caucasian weavings?

Thread: Renaissance reminiscences in Caucasian weavings? Reply to Thread
Your Username: Click here to log in
Random Question
Title:
  
Message:

Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

Topic Review (Newest First)
February 29th, 2012 12:50 PM
Yohann Gissinger Pierre and Filiberto,

"The square format and the field composition of the textiles illustrated below, drove me to some interesting things (I dare to think)"

I meant, interesting because of the visual similarities!
Of course, I have no darned proof and I don't defend any caucasomaniac theory.
If only this could provocate some readers to post new (and better?) elements...

Best regards,
Y
February 26th, 2012 02:26 PM
Filiberto Boncompagni As one (and probably the only one left) member of the formerly “strong and virulent sect of Caucasomaniacs” on Turkotek, I applaud the idea “that the concerned weavings are not rugs and may have their origin somewhere in or around the Caucasus”.

Unfortunately , what’s lacking is the darned proof (excuse the pun) i.e. surviving Caucasian embroideries of that age or at least a document mentioning their use in Europe at the time.

The textiles in the paintings could probably be embroideries but they could have been locally made, though.
Regards,

Filiberto
February 26th, 2012 12:03 PM
Pierre Galafassi Interesting theory Yohann!

You are right, their small-, sometimes square format and their main apparent use for windowsill decoration could support your theory that at least some of these small "rugs" with simplified pattern, were embroideries.

Velvets and brocades are plentiful in old masters paintings (much more frequent than rugs actually) and so were silk satin textiles and (obvious) embroideries. Many could have been woven in Europe (Venice, Lucca, Palermo etc..)

Could the following Renaissance paintings, FIG 1, FIG 2, FIG 3 also feature embroideries? I am a complete ignoramus in this field, but Marla Mallet, if she reads us, could perhaps give us her expert opinion.


FIG 1: I. da Viterbio, 1393, 
St Francis preaching.
Porziunco la.


FIG 2:Anonymous. 1425-1440. British Library.
(Note the walking gooses. Hardly fitting for one of our modern Presidents (with a few exceptions of course) but apparently perfectly OK for a Renaissance King.)


FIG 3:Fra Angelico, 1420-1430, St Cosma & St Damiano on the pyre, Annalena altarpiece .

Besides, the analogy between your Rippon Boswell Caucasian embroidery and Del Cossa’s rug will win you the devotion of the strong and virulent sect of Caucasomaniacs, here on Turkotek, given the rarity of fourth- or fifteenth century paintings featuring a rug which could plausibly be ascribed to Caucasus.
Arguably, the following one, by Pinturicchio, could be such a rare bird too. (it is, apparently, a rug, but please note the strange fringes )


FIG 4. Pinturicchio, 1475-1480, Virgin and Child, National Gallery, London.

However Yohann, to really achieve sainthood- or prophet status here on Turkotek, you will have to bring us a painting featuring a credible fourteenth century Turkmen rug or, better still, l an extant one !
Best regards,
Pierre
February 24th, 2012 07:01 PM
Yohann Gissinger
Reminiscences of earlier examples?

Hello to all,

The square format and the field composition of the textiles illustrated below, drove me to some interesting things (I dare to think).

Even if the still existing examples I found on the web are later than the paintings, these pieces may lead us to conclude that the concerned weavings are not rugs and may have their origin somewhere in or around the Caucasus.


FIG 31 G. del Cossa. 1476-1484. Allegory of April, detail. Palazzo Schifanoia. Ferrara.



18th century Caucasian Embroidery Rippon Boswell Spring 2003 sale, 17th May 2003


Iran 1700-1724 Plain weave cotton embroidered with silk in surface darning and running stitch, backed with plain weave cotton and faced with bias-cut silk.

Cf: Plate 10, p.107 in Jennifer Wearden in 'Azerbaijanian Embroideries: A Synthesis of Contrasts' in Hali Issue 59, October 1991 pp. 102-111.

This embroidery belongs to Group 2 as defined by Jennifer Wearden in ‘Azerbaijanian Embroideries: A Synthesis of Contrasts’ in Hali Issue 59, October 1991 pp. 102-111. Group 2 textiles are characterised by surface darning; if the colours are dark and strong the textiles may date from the early 18th century.
Source: V&A museum.



Concerning another painting:


FIG 30 A. da Fabriano. 1474. Virgin and Child.Genga.


Azerbaijan 1740-1790 Plainweave cotton embroidered with silk in surface darning on the diagonal with running stitch for the outlining.

The ground is covered with cartouches alternated with eight-pointed stars like in the illustration above.

This textile belongs to Group 3 as defined by Jennifer Wearden in 'Azerbaijanian Embroideries: A Synthesis of Contrasts' in Hali, Issue 59, October 1991 pp. 102-111. Group 3 textiles are characterised by surface darning on the diagonal and date from the middle of the 18th century into the early part of the 19th century.
Source: V&A museum.

Best regards,
Y
December 12th, 2011 09:20 AM
Filiberto Boncompagni Interesting, bravo Yohann.

Pierre,
Quote:
Not likely to find reminiscences of Spanish Renaissance in nineteenth century South Caucasus IMHO
Well, in “Rugs of the Lost Ark” (Salon 114), Horst Nitz made the hypotheses of a carpet motif carried by Spanish Jews to Caucasus…
Regards,

Filiberto
December 11th, 2011 10:26 PM
Yohann Gissinger Hello Pierre,

I should probably entitle the thread differently.
I didn't want to mean that the spanish (european) renaissance had such an influence on the XIXth c. rugs in south caucasus of course! I used the european renaissance as a chronology reference only.
In another hand, during the XVIth c. Spain was the most powerful country in Europe and maybe in the world...

You can also note the progressive disappearance of the classical bestiary in painting. The knowledge is now diffusing due to the progress of books printing since Gutenberg. Universities and library are now beginning to rise in Europe (1500).


Amitiés,
Yohann
December 11th, 2011 08:03 PM
Pierre Galafassi Hi Yohann,

Not likely to find reminiscences of Spanish Renaissance in nineteenth century South Caucasus IMHO.

Coincidence?

Indication that similar motifs existed in the Islamic portfolio in the 14-15 th century and
1) travelled to Al Andalus and
2) survived in Caucasus until the 19th century?

For sure the analogy is puzzling.

Amitiés
Pierre
December 11th, 2011 06:48 PM
Yohann Gissinger
Renaissance reminiscences in Caucasian weavings?

Hello to all,







Pictures from: http://rjohnhowe.wordpress.com/2011/...es-brought-in/

Best regards,
Y

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.