Welcome to TurkoTek's Discussion Forums

Archived Salons and Selected Discussions can be accessed by clicking on those words, or you can return to the Turkotek Home Page. Our forums are easy to use, and you are welcome to read and post messages without registering. However, registration will enable a number of features that make the software more flexible and convenient for you, and you need not provide any information except your name (which is required even if you post without being registered). Please use your full name. We do not permit posting anonymously or under a pseudonym, ad hominem remarks, commercial promotion, comments bearing on the value of any item currently on the market or on the reputation of any seller. Turkotek Discussion Forums - Reply to Topic


Go Back   Turkotek Discussion Forums > Virtual Show and Tell > Hand woven or................?

Virtual Show and Tell Just what the title says it is.

Thread: Hand woven or................? Reply to Thread
Your Username: Click here to log in
Random Question
Title:
  
Message:

Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

Topic Review (Newest First)
November 15th, 2017 10:10 AM
Kay Dee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Price View Post
I'm not interested in engaging you in a debate and, quite frankly, I wouldn't have you as a guest in my home. Speaking as a participant, If you opt out of Turkotek it would suit me just fine.
Steve Price
Hi Steve.

Point/s noted, taken on-board (as I hope some of mine have been).

As for now, although it seems you yourself would rather me not here, and it is your forum after all, I'll stay for now if its all the same to you(?), and see if I can moderate what to me is just my Ozzie bluntness, but that others can oft find 'offensive'. But with all due respect, and no offense meant, no promises there given my long ingrained writing / bluntly talking habits.

Oh and Jeff, first thanks for your 'support' as it were. However I no longer live in the land of Oz, so no shrimps on the barbie for me, but rather salmon steaks (cold and/or smoked) and moose burgers in my neck of the woods now. Oh an pardon my ignorance, but what is the V-Card?
November 14th, 2017 01:01 AM
Jeff Sun Kay-

1. Don't leave.
2. If you leave, or if your don't, send me your email (not really sure how to do that here) but I have turned on the v-card. It seems we share much of the same interests.
3. Don't leave.

Also, I ended not getting Niu You La Mian, but I did go to Nom Wah for Dim Sum. On a cold November day with rain spitting from the sky, Nom Wah is tough to beat. I hope you have a similar retreat (treat?) down in Oz.

http://nomwah.com/chinatown/

-JS
November 14th, 2017 12:13 AM
Steve Price Hi Kay

Over the 19 years we're been on line, only four people have been banned, although three of them were banned more than once after their bans were lifted. It takes a lot more than me thinking someone is a jerk to get the person kicked off. On the other hand, your civility is close enough to the edge for me to have set the software to put your posts into a moderator queue for approval (or not, depending on the content).

I'm not interested in engaging you in a debate and, quite frankly, I wouldn't have you as a guest in my home. Speaking as a participant, If you opt out of Turkotek it would suit me just fine.

Steve Price
November 13th, 2017 07:41 PM
Kay Dee
Shame on me

OK, I’ll agree a stupid move on my part opting out / per-empting what appeared to be (and is on other forums) a ban for not towing the line, and being and FNG to boot. But……………………..that’s what it looked to me from where I was sitting and like where it seemed to be heading with what appears to me to be a general attitude here that “Marla (however much an expert in some areas she may be) can say no wrong / could not possibly be in error" attitude. But like I said earlier, I found her both condescending and insulting when I posted (in another thread) my position re “faded rugs / beauty is in the eye of the beholder”, so I figured what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. But I was wrong I see.

So, to be polite, in an impolite situation, I’ll answer / comment on some input since I ‘left’, from the most recent down to previous.

Jeff Sun> My thoughts are that this carpet is not Tibetan, it is Chinese, of some variety and made recently for purely decorative FLOOR purposes and has probably never seen the back of a horse. Even a really BIG horse.

Re underlined, EXACTLY! As anyone with ANY knowledge of Tibetan carpets should be able to see in a heartbeat / glance (of the back).

Jeff Sun> Just my 2 cents.

Nah, at least a dollar in this situation given your interest of rugs from said areas in question.
.
Chuck Wagner> You could have avoided this ridiculous unpleasantness by just answering the question instead of invoking an "appeal to authority" logical fallacy and then behaving badly. I've been looking at rugs for decades as well. That doesn't confer knowledge. It confers experience.

As someone wrongly noted before (Jeff maybe) that it was not personal, it is, that is I want nothing to do with answering ANY question or post by Marla, nor would I bother to intrude / participate in any of her threads (no loss there, I here shouted in the background) given her previous performance with regards my position / opinion re beauty is in the eye of the beholder and / or who is she to tell me what I should or should not like and why statement. Forgive yes, forget not!
.
Chuck Wagner>It's not unreasonable to ask what criteria someone uses to make a judgement.

The criteria of EXPERIENCE as you yourself said with that particulate type of rug. I have no interest really in the intricacies of how a jet engine works, just that it does, same really for most east of the Durand Line weaving's, as it is so so easy to tell the difference (just from the back) of the different types it is not even worth discussing, even though Marla can quote chapter and verse re how they are woven.

Chuck Wagner>You can ban yourself, Steve doesn't need to do it. Or, you could let bygones be bygones.

Yeah, like I said that was stupid of me, mea culpa, but I don’t expect any forgiveness as I stand 100% by what I have said prior to offering my resignation / 'spitting the dummy' (as they say in Oz) per se.

Chuck Wagner> Your call; you have made many interesting posts but the unnecessary sidetracks reduce their appeal.


Each to their own. I talk it like I walk it. But Chuck, you sidetrack's' comment seems to me to imply some sidetracks in more than just this thread. Care to elaborate or am I just readin' wrong?

Anyway, as Jeff (Sun) has said, that tiger ‘saddle’ in this discussion ain't Tibetan, has never seen a horse, was made for the floor and to sell at a high price (so called tiger rugs of all shapes and forms are in very high demand today) to some unsuspecting buyer.

Enough said, at least by me. Maybe we should just move on with me again admitting my stupidity in resigning prematurely. But that's Steve's (yours?) call I suspect re banning, and others re 'moving on'.
November 10th, 2017 04:15 AM
Jeff Sun Wow. Looks like I picked an interesting time to check Turkotek

Interesting rug Kay! (interesting conversation, too!)

My thoughts are that this carpet is not Tibetan, it is Chinese, of some variety and made recently for purely decorative FLOOR purposes and has probably never seen the back of a horse. Even a really BIG horse.

Just my 2 cents.

Anyway, for some reason this has put me in the mood for some Niu Rou La Mian. I may have to duck into the city the weekend for a bowl of hand pulled noodles!

Also I hope it is not Goodbye, as I enjoy your Tibetan/Chinese rug posts and conversations very much.
November 10th, 2017 01:31 AM
Rich Larkin Well said, Chuck.
November 10th, 2017 12:12 AM
Chuck Wagner Kay,

You could have avoided this ridiculous unpleasantness by just answering the question instead of invoking an "appeal to authority" logical fallacy and then behaving badly. I've been looking at rugs for decades as well. That doesn't confer knowledge. It confers experience.

It's not unreasonable to ask what criteria someone uses to make a judgement.

You can ban yourself, Steve doesn't need to do it. Or, you could let bygones be bygones.

Your call; you have made many interesting posts but the unnecessary sidetracks reduce their appeal.

Chuck

Regards
Chuck
November 9th, 2017 11:00 PM
Kay Dee Steve, my comment was to EVERYONE, just using Marla's address to me as an example; that is as much as you and others may assume that Kay is a woman's name, where I come from it is not, just as Robin / Robyn is not, as I have said before IIRC, re 'Kay' on this forum.

Anyway Steve, this is just getting all too silly, so if you are so on the horse that thinks I have it in for Marla just go ahead and ban me from your forum. Pity you couldn't have seen the same / been more objective / said the same to her when she was so rude to me some threads ago now.

But as Ned Kelly said "Such is life". Or as Nepali's say 'Khe ghani' i.e. 'what to do'.

If people cant handle or be made aware of the truth, or a direct point, then so be it.

Sorry about that but I stand 100% by ALL my posts.

Best rugs and goodbye, Mr Kay

PS. Let me add if I may, where I come from the word 'assume' (or simply assuming anything) translates to making an ass out of u and me. Again, goodby in advance, and it was enjoyable while it lasted. As we say at the beach "see you in the tube" (if you should be so lucky as to have a wave / tube nearby that is).
November 9th, 2017 01:45 PM
Steve Price Hi Kay

The short answer is that it's a pretty common woman's name and a very rare name for men.

Just a reminder: you said that don't want to engage in conversations with Marla, so please don't make comments to or about her.

Steve Price
November 9th, 2017 08:31 AM
Kay Dee
Not Ms. but Mr. if you please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marla Mallett View Post
Ms. Kay Dee,
I wonder why people just assume Kay is a woman's name?
November 7th, 2017 07:43 PM
Ken Shum All,

As a observer, it seems (to me at least) that Kay's intent not to enter into discussions with Marla only applied to the structure of Tibetan rugs with Marla and not "La-la-la I'm not speaking to you" in general.

Ken
November 7th, 2017 07:02 PM
Steve Price Kay

I don't want to get entangled in this, but as a general principle, if you don't want to engage in conversation with someone, don't. Announcing it while directing remarks at him/her isn't the way to do it.

Steve Price
November 7th, 2017 06:30 PM
Marla Mallett Ms. Kay Dee,

My comments above were addressed to the dozens of serious individuals who participate in this open public forum, since you showed no interest in the unique features of Tibetan structures.

Marla Mallett
November 7th, 2017 05:44 PM
Kay Dee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marla Mallett View Post
Hello Turkotekers,

Since Kay wishes to avoid any talk of structures in Tibetan rugs,
No Marla, I specifically said I wanted no discussion / talk with you, as I found you condescending in the extreme (to me) in our last 'discussion'.

And given all your vast knowledge, may I humbly suggest you stick to what you know best, which obviously isn't ID'ing Tibetan rug structure from photos of the back of the rug, yes that's right, the back (as no guesswork is required when it comes to true Tibetan woven rugs), as opposed to having to have one 'in the hand' as you seem to suggest is so necessary.

That's all I have to say on the matter, respectfully, M'am .

EDIT; Well, just one more thing, if you please, so their can be no misconception among readers re 'mistaken identity' or that I am not aware of whom I am addressing. That is I am well aware who you are Marla, I have your book (two copies actually) and recommend it to all and sundry, so its not like I think your no expert in your field. I just think / know your just dead wrong re ID'ing Tibetan carpets from photos of the back, repeat back, unlike not being that way for many other carpets from different regions / origin (save for most / 'Chinese' that is).
November 7th, 2017 05:33 PM
Marla Mallett Hello Turkotekers,

Since Kay wishes to avoid any talk of structures in Tibetan rugs, I must say that proximity to the rugs over a period of years is not the same as being willing to observe and analyze their structures closely. TIBETAN KNOTTING IS ONE OF THE MOST DISTINCTIVE STRUCTURES IN THE TEXTILE/RUG WORLD , and a close look at any of those pieces that one has in hand makes a correct POSITIVE IDENTIFICATION absolutely certain. NO guesswork is required.

1. The most distinguishing feature of Tibetan knotting is that each knot interlaces with four warps instead of two—and the knots overlap. Tufts from two different knots emerge together from between alternate pairs of warps. One can probe the weaving with a needle to discern the presence of this feature, but it is nearly impossible to display in a photo.

2. Since more than one yarn is normally used as the working unit in Tibetan knotting, it is possible to observe a difference between the number of yarns appearing on the front-side knot collars and the nodules on the back of the piece. I.e. if three yarns are used together for the knotting unit, there would be three yarns visible in each front-side nodule, but six yarns in each of the back-side nodules. If the working unit consists of two yarns, there will be two visible in the front nodules, and four in each of the back nodules. There are twice as many on the back because the knots overlap on the back side. In other words, each warp is crossed just once on the front by the working unit, but is crossed twice on the back.

3. Because four warps are used with each knot, color changes along a vertical direction must be handled with a separate, different kind of knot on just two of the warps if the design edge is to be sharp. Otherwise, a ragged design edge occurs. This is ONE feature that can sometimes be identified in photos. This Tibetan knotting irregularity indeed does occur in the subject piece on this thread—the “Tiger” saddle rug. This is the feature that Marvin and Rich presumably noticed in coming to their correct conclusions about the origins of the rug.

Since these features occur only with Tibetan knotting, their presence positively confirms that the piece was constructed with Tibetan knotting. Again: No guess-work is necessary.

I have noted these structural features because I believe it is necessary that on the Turkotek board we NOT let misinformation stand uncorrected. I believe most Turkotek participants are serious about the subject and want the integrity of this board maintained. I remind you all that the person who began this thread started by asking for information on how the particular piece “was made” and indeed even asked for opinions on whether or not it was “handmade.”

Marla

PS. The frequent “anomalies” in Chinese rugs are entirely different from those in Tibetan knotting. Both must be observed very closely to be of use in making attributions.
November 7th, 2017 10:19 AM
Kay Dee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marla Mallett View Post
Kay,

Would you please tell us what specific structural features you use to differentiate Tibetan and non-Tibetan knotting? These distinctive features can be easily identified when you have a weaving in hand, but they are extremely difficult or impossible to display in photos.

Marla Mallett
Marla, with all due respect to both your vast knowledge, experience and expertise, given how our last 'conversation' developed and ended I would prefer not to 'converse' with you again, no offense meant to you or others here. Sorry about that.

However let me say to others, in my experience having dealt almost exclusively with Tibetan and central and western Chinese rugs since 1971, and having lived in Kathmandu (in a Tibetan 'area') for the better part of 10 years long long ago, it is far from "extremely difficult or impossible to display in photos" to differentiate a close up pic of the back of Tibetan rug from, say, a close up pic of the back of a 'Chinese' rug. So holding said rug in your hand will make no difference whatsoever. Again, with ALL due respect to ALL the experts here.

But of course, that's just in my 46 years of experience of photographing, handling and dealing in said area rugs, so my opinion may mean little or nothing to others, and so be it, each to their own.

November 6th, 2017 10:28 PM
Marla Mallett Kay,

Would you please tell us what specific structural features you use to differentiate Tibetan and non-Tibetan knotting? These distinctive features can be easily identified when you have a weaving in hand, but they are extremely difficult or impossible to display in photos.

Marla Mallett
November 5th, 2017 08:17 AM
Kay Dee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin Amstey View Post
I simply don't have the piece in hand to know for sure. In the meantime, here are two Tibetan saddles for your pleasure:
And VERY pleasureable they both are Marvin, especially the lower one! Besides a somewhat 'rare' shape, and other things, what looks to be a beautiful shade of green centre.

Also, the roundels in both, especially the top one, look rather unique.
November 4th, 2017 02:28 PM
Marvin Amstey No offense taken, Kay
I simply don't have the piece in hand to know for sure. In the meantime, here are two Tibetan saddles for your pleasure:





Best
Marvin
November 3rd, 2017 11:02 PM
Kay Dee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin Amstey View Post
Hi Kay,
As per Rich, there is nothing that I see that changes my opinion.....yet.
Marvin

Marvin, no offense meant but................. .you will have to go a long way to convince me.

This is simply not a Tibetan weave.

Please show my another example that can be shown to have that weave and be a genuine Tibetan. In 45 years of collecting / selling Tibetans and 'western' Chinese I have never seen this weave in a genuine Tibetan, whether woven in Tibet or Nepal.

But there IS always a first time for everything I'll admit.

I'll try to get better exposed shots of the fold next week.
This thread has more than 20 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:17 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.