Welcome to TurkoTek's Discussion Forums

Archived Salons and Selected Discussions can be accessed by clicking on those words, or you can return to the Turkotek Home Page. Our forums are easy to use, and you are welcome to read and post messages without registering. However, registration will enable a number of features that make the software more flexible and convenient for you, and you need not provide any information except your name (which is required even if you post without being registered). Please use your full name. We do not permit posting anonymously or under a pseudonym, ad hominem remarks, commercial promotion, comments bearing on the value of any item currently on the market or on the reputation of any seller. Turkotek Discussion Forums - Reply to Topic


Go Back   Turkotek Discussion Forums > Virtual Show and Tell > Flat weave bags

Virtual Show and Tell Just what the title says it is.

Thread: Flat weave bags Reply to Thread
Your Username: Click here to log in
Random Question
Title:
  
Message:

Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

Topic Review (Newest First)
June 16th, 2017 01:18 AM
Chuck Wagner Rich,

We were in the Eastern Province, so the shops in Khobar and Dammam, the old souk in Hofuf, as well as those in Bahrain, were frequented. We got down to the Emirates from time to time as well, but there was a heavy bias toward low end Pakistani and Indian stuff there, used for day to day floor covering, as well as a lot of brand new (read: leaky dyes) south Persian and Afghan refugee material.

In the EP many of the shops were managed by Afghans, with family connections that did their sourcing. So international access was well established. Lots of inter-marriage, especially with NE Persian families. So the mix was actually quite broad, although biased toward recently manufactured goods.

A few of the shops also had good quality non-textile arts and crafts, in particular - hand engraved metal ware, and enameled metal ware.

There were three or four dealers we traded with who could bring in some more "ethnographic" material with some regularity. I have some images of a few of the shops buried somewhere on the computer. I imagine that some of the goods are still hanging there...

Regards
Chuck Wagner
June 15th, 2017 01:37 PM
Rich Larkin Hi Steve,

Your rationale about the possible effect of the Russian presence in Afghanistan on various phenomena in the rug market sounds very plausible. It makes one wonder what other interesting weavings might be hiding in remote areas more or less undisturbed.

Chuck, where in Saudi Arabia did you acquire your Tatari bag (which I assume is the one you posted in frame #35)? I was in Riyadh in the mid-sixties, where I caught the rug bug on account of constant exposure. (The suq was the only place to go for entertainment.) At that time, the rug market there had little connection to the international rug market. Mostly South Persian material from across the gulf. If a room-sized rug was needed, there was a large supply of mediocre but hard-working red Tabrizes.

Rich
June 15th, 2017 11:57 AM
Chuck Wagner Hi Steve, et al.,

I bought my Uzbek piece in Saudi Arabia in 1984. In 20 years I had only seen two or three on the markets there, including the one I bought. It was my sense that those few on the market were not of any great age, 1940's to 1960's perhaps. But that was just a guess; in my case, the dealer had no specific knowledge other than it was sourced to him, from northeast Afghanistan.

regards,
Chuck Wagner
June 15th, 2017 05:35 AM
Steve Wallace In relation Rich's post 75, and his not being aware of Uzbek Tataris until recently, maybe the appearance of this group of textiles is related to the Russian presence in Afghanistan late 1979 to 1989 (I think).

Given that the Uzbek Tatari live or used to live in and around Northern Afghanistan, it certainly seems possible that their circumstances may have been disrupted during that period. (This may be an understatement.)

I started collecting textiles in about 1980 to 1981. I have a hazy recollection of one show put on in my city (Adelaide, Australia, in 1981 or 1982) by Alexandra and Leigh Copeland (who were still able to go to Kabul and buy up textiles) that had a few of these Uzbek Tatari pieces.

As stated earlier, I got mine in 1983; that particular shop seemed to be an Uzbek shop, with limited stock (by the time I was there). This was unlike most of the others which had stacks of Afghan rugs, Maimana kilims and Baluch flat weaves, balishts, and rugs.

I also recall going to another shop which had hardly any stock, but bought a kilim made from a tent band that had very recently been assembled by sewing the strips together with commercial wool. The one I bought had 3 strips joined. I could have bought another from the same tent band with 2 strips joined. I believe this is also some sort of Uzbek weaving.

So, in summary, I reckon that the Russian presence had effects on the market, as a consequence of disrupted groups of people, and what follows. From memory (risky, I know), at some stages there were about 5 million refugees in Pakistan and Iran.

So maybe that's the reason, Rich. Or maybe not.

Steve
June 15th, 2017 04:09 AM
Joel Greifinger Hi Rich,

I hope that on one of your excursions to the Harvard Square rug emporium you stopped in to hear the current Nobel Prize winner in Literature performing between Joan Baez's sets at Club 47.

Quote:
Well, I was thinking more of a lemon chiffon. Maybe even a banana creme. But the old Anatolian yellows are a whole 'nuther subject. I'll trade you my Tatari for one!
Your Tatari for this:



one of these:



and what else?

Joel
June 15th, 2017 02:36 AM
Rich Larkin Hi Joel,

It dawns on me there used to be (in the late 1970s) a rug shop just outside Harvard Square in Cambridge, Massachusetts, operated by a young Afghani man. I have mentioned this place in the past on these pages. His family collected his sales inventory in the old country and shipped to him. I passed the place frequently on business and would often stop in.

I remember clearly that his stock was mostly Baluchi material that looked "right," but crisply new. It was his stuff that convinced me Baluch rug weavers, some of them, anyway, maintained traditional standards well into the 20th century. Most of it was dark, but the colors looked natural and pleasing, and the end and side finishes were of the old type. For example, he had ToL prayer rugs on wool foundations with the appropriate ends and corded goat hair wrapping on the selvages. All they needed was patina. At the time, I was quite familiar with other Baluch goods in the market that were sad reflections of their predecessors, including cotton foundations and leaky, harsh colors. Another item he had in well represented in his stock was the large pile rug in two sections, stitched together down the center.

My point here is that I am sure he had nothing from the Uzbek Tatari in the store. I would certainly have taken note of it. The lack of such goods doesn't mean they weren't being produced, but it may say something about how the market was operating in Afghanistan around that period. I would imagine my Harvard Square friend was getting goods from the region down towards Herat and elsewhere, whereas the Tatari weavings were emanating from much farther north. A view of the map at Figure 1 in the interesting article Egbert posted suggests the geography of the situation.

As you can perhaps discern, I am non-plussed over not having been aware of this line of weavings.

Rich
June 14th, 2017 10:29 PM
Rich Larkin Hi Patrick,

Quote:
This would indicate that these pieces had been on the market in the west since the beginning of rug collecting.
Or at least since they finished the Ardebil Carpet.

Joel,

Quote:
I'll admit that I often prefer a Dijon shade, except perhaps for some of the brilliantly bright yellows sometime found on even very old Anatolian rugs that Bohmer has suggested were dyed with some form of luteolin.
Well, I was thinking more of a lemon chiffon. Maybe even a banana creme. But the old Anatolian yellows are a whole 'nuther subject. I'll trade you my Tatari for one!

Quote:
I was merely reporting.
But of course!
June 14th, 2017 05:07 PM
Joel Greifinger
Quote:
I believe that the rosettes in these weavings are done in complementary weft technique - which would be obvious from a photo of the back. The design would be "opposite" of the front, meaning the white motif on the front will be in the dark ground color on the back.
Hi Pat,

I also thought that the tiny rosettes on that are on so many of these Tatari bags were done with complementary weft weave. Here's the view on mine:

Front:



back:



As the entry and exit of the T-pin shows, the rosette on the front corresponds to the brown area on the back.



Quote:
if the yellow is over-strong, like a batch of French's mustard they had to reject at the quality control desk
Rich,

I'll admit that I often prefer a Dijon shade, except perhaps for some of the brilliantly bright yellows sometime found on even very old Anatolian rugs that Bohmer has suggested were dyed with some form of luteolin.

Quote:
And keep in mind, I am not vaulting it back to the 19th century.
I was merely reporting. You'd have to take that age attribution up with the author of Tribal Rugs: Treasures of the Black Tent himself.

Joel
June 14th, 2017 04:40 PM
Patrick Weiler Steve,
Your bag is a very nice one, with what appear to be natural vegetal dyes - one indication of greater age. I believe that the rosettes in these weavings are done in complementary weft technique - which would be obvious from a photo of the back. The design would be "opposite" of the front, meaning the white motif on the front will be in the dark ground color on the back. The dark ground color on the front will be white on the back, most likely showing an X-like white pattern. The first salt bag I ever bought, in a rug store in Seattle in the late 1980's, was an Uzbek Tartari piece. It was a piece from the "personal collection" of the worker at the store and he had bought it several years prior to my acquisition. This would indicate that these pieces had been on the market in the west since the beginning of rug collecting.

Patrick Weiler
June 14th, 2017 04:39 PM
Rich Larkin Hi Joel
Quote:
I'd just like to know what factors incline you to seeing Steve's bag as relatively older than the other examples.
Well, it had already been around the block a few times when he bought it in 1983. And I like the execution, especially, those nifty zig-zag outer side borders. The striped back is not a huge artistic challenge, but she did a nice, tasteful job on that, too. Finally, I have a quirky rule of thumb on yellow that almost certainly lacks even a shred of validity: if the yellow is over-strong, like a batch of French's mustard they had to reject at the quality control desk, I suspect late. My Tatari has it. Steve's looks like it has a much more mellow shade.

Just my impression. And keep in mind, I am not vaulting it back to the 19th century.

Rich
June 14th, 2017 04:17 PM
Joel Greifinger
Quote:
I am more inclined to impute decent age to your bag than most.
Hi Rich,

I'm not disputing your inclination, since mine is pretty much agnostic. I'd just like to know what factors incline you to seeing Steve's bag as relatively older than the other examples.

Joel
June 14th, 2017 03:42 PM
Rich Larkin Hi Steve Wallace,

Quote:
My bag doesn't seem to be brand new - it has always had a hole in the back;
I am more inclined to impute decent age to your bag than most. You got a good looker IMHO.

Quote:
The fringe part seems to be goat hair, or partly so at least.
I would think undyed (brown) sheep's wool more than goat hair. The latter tends to be stiff and resistant to the curl in your fringes.

Rich
June 13th, 2017 10:48 PM
Joel Greifinger For those with a social media bent there is currently a thread in "The Weftkickers" Facebook group about Tatari weavings from northern Afghanistan.

According to one participant who is Afghan and whose family has long handled weavings and other cultural artefacts from the area, there are rare older examples but most are very large kilims.

This is an example of a large Tatari kilim (of indeterminate date):



Joel
June 13th, 2017 10:16 PM
Rich Larkin Hi Joel,

It is astonishing how easily a strain of weavings will leap the gap between, say, 1960, and the 19th century.
June 13th, 2017 02:49 PM
Joel Greifinger
Quote:
Did you think they were new at the time?
Hi Rich and Steve,

At least some pieces that have come on the market made by this group have been plausibly estimated to be older. Brian MacDonald attributed this namakdan to the late 19th century:



Joel
June 13th, 2017 06:43 AM
Steve Wallace Rich, from memory, there were a number of bags with this design - certainly more than 2 I bought. I reckon there were not masses of stock in the shop anyway, and possibly there were some kilims also - I may have been focussed on bags at the time for financial reasons.

My bag doesn't seem to be brand new - it has always had a hole in the back; although the wool is not soft, the bag has some 'suppleness' if that means anything. The other bag was not identical - a bit more rectangular and seemed a bit more 'used' if my memory serves me well (which it may not).

The fringe part seems to be goat hair, or partly so at least. The bag is 53 cm by 51 cm. (21" by 20")







Steve
June 12th, 2017 03:06 PM
Rich Larkin Hi Steve,

Did you think they were new at the time? Did the rest of the bags in the shop look like each other? Or was it more of a motley collection of Uzbek Tatari? (Keeping in mind I can't remember what I had for breakfast yesterday.)

Rich
June 12th, 2017 04:09 AM
Steve Wallace
Uzbek bags - timing on the market

I can add that I bought 2 bags of this design in Peshawar in late 1983 (I only own one of them now), from a shop with a number of similar bags, and nothing much else if I recall correctly. (
Possibly (this is just a guess) the Russian presence in Afghanistan caused them to come on the market around then. Certainly many rugs (including a few Luri/Bakhtiari saddle bags) were coming to Pakistan then, many of them already labelled with a price (in Arabic text).
I'll take a photo and try to post it soon - it's the same sort of design but has a four sided, sewn on band of 'fringes'. Interesting discussion, thanks
Steve
June 11th, 2017 06:28 PM
Rich Larkin Hi Egbert,

That is a very interesting paper. Though it is a draft (from 2004), a little side research on one of the authors, Adam Pain, makes clear he is a professional with a number of published works on the topic of rural development, in Afghanistan and elsewhere. He later held the chair as visiting professor of rural development at the Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences in Uppsala, Sweden. I didn’t find anything else on the co-author, (Mohammed) Moharram Ali, though he is listed as a “consultant” in the paper along with several other persons (including Pain).

A noteworthy aspect of the paper is that it provides detailed information about certain very significant shifts in the rug weaving industry of Northern Afghanistan for the thirty or thirty-five year period of its focus prior to the writing of the paper. It also mentions that relatively little is known about the internal structure of the industry in Afghanistan prior to 1950 or 1960. This stimulates one of my major latent gripes about the literature in general on the ‘recent’ (i. e., the past 150 or so years) history of rug weaving throughout the Middle East. Very often, generalities are recited about what was going on over time with little detail, though common sense tells us that literally hundreds of benchmark events (births, deaths, battles, the place of individual persons in positions that provided some measure of control over rug production policy, etc.) had to have occurred that led to what we see now as the surviving remnants of the production. I have always though that much of the generalization represented either guesswork or genteel plagiarism. This Adam Pain/Moharram Ali paper makes it clear that in the very recent past, the Afghan industry has experienced a number of abrupt shifts for one reason or another. For one thing, it piques my curiosity even more than before about what was really happening in Afghanistan for the hundred or so years before the period focused on in the paper you have brought to our attention.

Rich
June 11th, 2017 06:06 PM
Rich Larkin Hi Richard and Joel,

Thanks for the information. It makes me wonder where I’ve been. I wasn’t familiar with the weavings, many of which tend to fall into a narrow design format, and I have no experience with the Hull and Luczyc-Wyhowska publication. If these weavings had been well-represented in the U. S. marketplace before, say, 1990, I am pretty sure I would have noticed them. BTW, I washed my fragment, and though it softened up a bit, no one would be thinking about merino wool.

Rich
This thread has more than 20 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:07 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.