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Martin Andersen
November 6th, 2017, 01:51 AM
Thanks Steve - Then I will cling on to "Aksu" - an oasis city must have water and to me the design sure aesthetically have an eastern tone

Best Martin

Martin Andersen
November 6th, 2017, 08:30 AM
This piece was sold as “probably Saryk”, the white is cotton. Would have loved to have more info on it, fx if it is in Khorjin or Mafrash format when lifted of the chair (according to the seller it looked complete).
The Elem match what I would except once have been the layout of the lower end of my Aksu piece. It is sometimes a small world, who knows perhaps someone here knows where the chair is now?

https://i.imgur.com/XvvcLU2.jpg

Best Martin

Chuck Wagner
November 7th, 2017, 02:41 PM
Hi Martin,

Maybe it's just me, but I cannot get a definitive view of the knot asymmetry.

Would you mind trying to get a good clear shot, maybe folding back along a weft line ?

Regards
Chuck

Martin Andersen
November 7th, 2017, 06:19 PM
Hi Chuck

Here some close ups, folded along the weft line. Hope they makes sense (not easy to take photos of these very small knots). And I would of course love to be wrong regarding the open right :)

https://i.imgur.com/3Vl8u9C.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/DglTGMT.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/EzPHlkt.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/VBE8sPQ.jpg

best
Martin

Rich Larkin
November 7th, 2017, 09:56 PM
Hi Martin,

Bravo on the photography. Those are open right, asymmetrical, no doubt.

Rich

Chuck Wagner
November 7th, 2017, 10:32 PM
Hi Martin,

Rich is correct, those are good shots, and yes, AsymR. For me, that rules out Saryk work (as far as anyone can rule anything out, given that we actually know so little).

There an ak-su torba out there in the interverse with open right knotting; the seller has deftly avoided criticism/conflict by just calling it Turkmen.

Regards
Chuck

Rich Larkin
November 7th, 2017, 10:53 PM
Chuck,

My reflex take on Martin's frag, based largely on palette, with a minor chord played from the cotton section, is that it doesn't look Tekke. Maybe I have led too sheltered a life. Does it strike you that way, technical specs notwithstanding?

Rich

Chuck Wagner
November 7th, 2017, 11:36 PM
Rich,

I presume you are referring to what seems to be a relatively dark palette.

I think judgement of the palette is deceptive because so much of the border area is gone.

What little is there, is consistent with Tekke, and undifferentiated Middle Amu Darya (typically AsymR) , and pieces such as the late MAD Salor chuvals. The relatively large area of the face devoted to silk is also consistent with both sources.

That border/end panel motif treatment is common on Turkmen khorjins from several weaving groups (which is why I still have a nagging Yomud opinion as well). For me, the unusual occurrence of ak-su on a small bag is enough to wonder about MAD origin.

Almost all ak-su torbas that I've looked at over the past few days have the dark blue outline on the main motif, including the Salor examples (that's why I wanted to have a good look at the knots, but nope, no AsymL).

Regards
Chuck

Rich Larkin
November 8th, 2017, 02:03 AM
Hi Chuck,

Good point about the missing parts! Plenty of regular madder red there, I am sure.

Rich

Chuck Wagner
November 8th, 2017, 02:15 AM
...and BTW...

the white in the close-ups of the knots looks like wool, not cotton.


...and BTW...

In Peter Stone's book on tribal and village motifs, he mentions - but does not show - a Veramin Arab saddlebag with the ak-su motif.

Dark palette. Sound familiar ?

Regards
Chuck

Martin Andersen
November 8th, 2017, 06:55 AM
Thanks Chuck and Rich

Regarding the outer missing framing there is of course no way of knowing. But on all Aksu pieces I have seen the color from the “gols” in the mainfield (or the color from the main border) is repeated as outer frame. A clear red madder framing repeating the small parts of the guard border on my piece would have been beautiful and in high contrast to the mainfield, but also aesthetically a bit strange compared to what else exist.
And I am fairly sure the white is cotton, the closeups might misrepresent texture a bit because of the digital sharpening.

Here a photo of my Tekke Mafrash Aksu, size ca. 78 x 70 cm including fringes. Very very fine knots, haven’t counted them, but sure it is a higher Kpsi than the other. In this there is nothing which have made me uncertain about it being Tekke.

https://i.imgur.com/PCM2FC4.jpg

I suddenly remember I might have a MAD Aksu somewhere (not terrible exciting so it have hidden itself somewhere, I will try to find it). Veramin I find unlikely for my piece, but would be very interesting seeing how the Veramin used the Aksu pattern in saddlebag format. I still think the Khorjin format is a possibility because of the "Elem".
A facebook friend have suggested Ok Bosh fragment as a possibility, would of course also be interesting, dont think I have seen the Syrga border on a Ok Bosh, but the same goes for a Khorjin. Well missing parts are leaving room for speculations, perhaps thats why I prefer fragments and pieces with holes :)

Best Martin

Chuck Wagner
November 8th, 2017, 01:10 PM
Hi Martin,

Since writing the last post I found a photo of the Veramin piece in a book by Parviz Tanavoli, and while having an accurately drawn ak-su motif, it's nothing at all like your piece. And I never thought yours was anything other than Turkmen.

Regards
Chuck

Martin Andersen
November 8th, 2017, 01:16 PM
Hi Chuck

I would still be curious to see the Veramin, if its not too much trouble. It is generally interesting how the Veramin adapted Turkmen patterns.

Here some photos of my “not terrible exciting” MAD Aksu (it is one of those ebay buys where you fool yourself into hoping the photos of the colors could perhaps be wrong - it will quickly go into hiding again :)). The size is 83 x 42 cm, and open right. Not much nice to say about it, perhaps except with some good will a nice green and reminisents of fringes, and I suppose around 1900 wouldn’t be unthinkable. Obviously hot running red.

https://i.imgur.com/Dq0Wxdp.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/JUjpQOG.jpg

I suppose its needless to say but the feel, wool and colors are rather unrelated to my little Aksu Kap/Khorjin


Best Martin

Joel Greifinger
November 8th, 2017, 01:48 PM
I would still be curious to see the Veramin


Hi Martin,

I assume that this is the Arab khorjin from Varamin (in Tanavoli) that Chuck was citing:

https://s1.postimg.org/6fxprqidj3/Arab-_Varamin-_Tanavoli.jpg

Joel

Martin Andersen
November 8th, 2017, 04:34 PM
Thanks Joel, interesting to see it. I think I have seen Veramins a bit more faithfull towards their possible Turkmen design origin.

My piece doesn’t have silk/cotton in the weft so I won’t claim Eagle Group as a possibility, but anyway:

In the Eagle Group the Asku design seems to be well-represented, actually surprisingly over-represented compared to its frequency in the other tribes/groups. The Aksu seems to be the most common Eagle Group pattern for small formats. John Taylor have collected 27 pieces on his Rugtracker blog. None of Taylors samples are of course with the white Syrga border or are in my very small format, but some of them looks like they have a purple insect dye mainfield.

https://i.imgur.com/9JJc3bZ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/fb67EMc.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/5FjD71O.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/UMOoUX7.jpg


Taylor doesn’t register if any of these have cotton and/or silk in the pile. But Hoffmeister’s Eagle Group Kizil Chuval here does have both cotton and silk in the pile:

https://i.imgur.com/Uhn0pHd.jpg

The structural criteria for Eagle Group is as far as I understand established mainly by the structure of the weft in main carpets. But i am not sure if all the smaller Eagle Group pieces by definition are required to have silk and cotton in the weft? Or if some of the smaller pieces are attributed by layout/colors of pieces which meets the structural criteria for Eagle Group?
Well I suppose Eagle Group attribution perhaps should be taken with some cautiousness, I can easily see sellers and auctions gladly putting on the label.

Taylor calls the Eagle Group “kind of Tekkified Yomut”, perhaps I could label my piece “kind of Eagle Groupified Tekke” :)

Best Martin