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Steve Price
June 8th, 2017, 12:07 PM
Hi Egbert

We don't discuss items that are on the market except to use them to illustrate a point for which we can find no other examples, and we never make remarks bearing on the market value of any item on the market.

I've deleted the name of the dealer you cited, for those reasons.


Steve Price

Egbert Vennema
June 8th, 2017, 12:17 PM
Hi, Steve, ok, forgot that rule... sorry. Going to post the pics i think could give some extra flavour to this woven discussion. Regards,Egbert Vennema.

Egbert Vennema
June 8th, 2017, 02:04 PM
Hello Steve, four JPegs as an attachment to your e-mail address ,regards,Egbert. :fez:

Chuck Wagner
June 8th, 2017, 02:34 PM

Egbert raises a valid question, re: Afshar. I spent some time looking through Hull & Luczyc-Wyhowska and did find one, and only one, reference to dovetail (single interlock) structure from south Persia, and that was for the Afshar in the Sirjan area.

The Shahsavan also - occasionally - use dovetail as well. My piece just doesn't look like a Shahsavan product. So, as Marla suggests, because structure rules out Bakhtiari on my piece, it is likely an Afshar of Sirjan work.

Chuck Wagner

Joel Greifinger
June 8th, 2017, 02:55 PM
Hi Chuck,

Dovetail and single-interlock are different structures. The former is used by a variety of Persian groups, the latter is rare. In his Persian Flatweaves (p. 49), Tanavoli suggests that single-interlock is "sometimes used in Lor weaves."



Is Egbert's Afshar suggestion concerning your kilim or Gerry's bags?


Egbert Vennema
June 8th, 2017, 10:17 PM
Hi, guys can t post the pics ,they are on the market at this moment.... so need some searching in the books for pieces that are not on the current market. Regards,Egbert. :cheers:

Joel Greifinger
June 8th, 2017, 10:24 PM
Hi Egbert,

In the meantime, what flowers were you referring to when you wrote "this flowered flatweave matter"? Was it the line of rosettes?


Chuck Wagner
June 9th, 2017, 01:13 AM

Yeah, I understand the difference, but it's not something that is always at the forefront of my mind. I was typing instead of thinking. And yes, I was referring to my piece, which I now have to find, bend, and photograph again.

In H & L-W they do not do not separate the two and it's difficult to work out the details of attribution.


Joel Greifinger
June 9th, 2017, 02:23 AM

It'll be interesting to see the back of your kilim and whether it confirms that it is the rare single-interlocked weaving.


Gerry Gorman
June 9th, 2017, 02:33 PM
Hi All,

I wanted to throw this out there and whilst it doesn't really have a bearing on where my flat weave bags originated, I am more curious about which tribes use what motifs and how much they intermingle and share each others ideas. Obviously the rosettes on my bags are hook end floral types which it seems can be attributed to the Bakhtiari located in the South West of Iran whereas I have a lovely Balouch pile rug with very similar rosettes coming from the South east region of Iran. The question being do many tribes use similar motifs or variants of the same and can you see this change visibly travel through different tribes putting their influence on a particular design over time.


Thanks Gerry

Joel Greifinger
June 9th, 2017, 03:28 PM
Obviously the rosettes on my bags are hook end floral types

Hi Gerry,

In order to make sure we're all referring to the same motifs, let's check-in about the terminology we're using. When I've referred to the rosettes in your bags and on both the Bakhtiari and Uzbek Tartari pieces, I was talking about the rows of tiny flowers viewed from "overhead" best illustrated in the middle photo in post #32. If I understand your post, you are referring to the hooked motifs in the diamonds in the lattice on this 'Baluch' rug and to the ones in your bags. In the 'Baluch' case, this is often called aina kochak and is, as you observe, similar to many other motifs across the region that are variations on what are known as Memling guls, kaikalak, latch hooks or animal-heads. I don't know that there is much consensus that these are floral in origin.


Gerry Gorman
June 9th, 2017, 03:37 PM
Hi Joel, you are right, in my enthusiasm for knowledge I got totally confused. I meant the guls though I did also notice many balouch weavings employ similar small white rosettes along the edging. I suppose the guls are more star like than floral.

Egbert Vennema
June 9th, 2017, 05:12 PM
Hi to all, yes Joel, the line of rosettes. You can also find them in the afshar sofreh s ,sometimes allover the flatweave, and sometimes just at the top and bottom ends . Regards,Egbert. :nerd:

Joel Greifinger
June 9th, 2017, 05:34 PM
many balouch weavings employ similar small white rosettes along the edging.

the line of rosettes. You can also find them in the afshar sofrehs

Hi Gerry and Egbert,

The most commonly used type of rosettes that I can think of on both Afshar and 'Baluch' pieces are the ones that are woven using weft-substitution. Here is an example from an Afshar bag:


this is what the technique looks like from the back:


These sort of weft-substitution rosettes are abundant in this old Afshar sofreh:

https://s10.postimg.org/pi8zxxlq1/Afshar_Sofreh_Tanavo li.jpg

The rows of tiny rosettes in Gerry's bag and the Bakhtiari and Uzbek Tartari examples aren't woven using this sort of weft-substitution weave.


Egbert Vennema
June 10th, 2017, 07:00 AM
Hi Joel, in that case ,of not using the weft-substitution weave , ill settle on a Afghanistan Maimana Kilim Bag ( there is one on a commercial ( sorry ,but coud not find anonther good example.. ) site,.... hope Steve won t delete this...:duel::clap: also with a similar pattern and tiney rosettes.) Regards,Egbert Vennema.

Joel Greifinger
June 10th, 2017, 09:12 PM
Hi Gerry,

I'm guessing that your bags began life looking more like this early 20th century Bakhtiari khorjin and later was cut apart for some reason. The size and proportions on the faces are quite like yours as these are 97cm wide.



Rich Larkin
June 11th, 2017, 02:20 AM
Hi Joel,

I googled "Uzbek Tartari," a combination I hadn't encountered before. Lo and behold, up came a few dozen bags and frags like the one I had posted here. What's up with that? Have these kinds of pieces been around long? Have they recently appeared in the rug literature?

I surmise the "Tartari" element refers to an alternate label for the group of people who weave these things. Am I right about that?


Egbert Vennema
June 11th, 2017, 05:00 AM
Hi to all, found this article on the internet,"Understanding Markets in Afghanistan ." a Case Study of Carpets and the Andkhoy Carpet Market ,http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/14628/1/cs04pa02.pdf It s about the market in the 1960. Regards,Egbert. :fez:

Richard Tomlinson
June 11th, 2017, 12:18 PM
Hi Rich

When I started collecting in 2000, those Uzbek Tatari pieces were abundant and very cheap on eBay. Some were better than others. At one stage a well known dealer was listing one almost every week!

At that time they were referred to as Tatari.


Joel Greifinger
June 11th, 2017, 04:17 PM
Have these kinds of pieces been around long? Have they recently appeared in the rug literature?

Hi Rich,

In their 1993 Kilim:The Complete Guide, Hull and Luczyc-Wyhowska wrote, "The Uzbek inhabitants of Sari Pul are collectively called 'Tartari'. taking their name from the Tartars (sic), the original Mongolo-Turkic tribes from the valleys of the In-Shan range who spread across Central Asia to the Middle East and include the Mongol-looking, Turkic-speaking people of Central Asia-the Uzbeks, Kazan, Tartars (sic), Turkomen, Kipchaks and Kirghiz. The Uzbek Tartari kilims fall into two categories...The ranghi (ranghi means red) are large kilims, usually about a double square in shape, and are always woven in double-interlock technique, one of the few types of Central Asian kilims to be woven thus. The wool is fine and soft, coloured deep red and blue, with occasional use of green, yellow and white. The compositions feature an overall grid of diamond shapes outlined in ivory white and containing a Tukic-style eight-pointed star, or spider, motif. The borders are narrow and often feature tight zig-zag patterns of two or three colours. These kilims are beautifully constructed with a tight weave, and well finished with a simple selvedge and long, dark brown wool fringes. Khorjin and various small bags are woven in a similar style by the Uzbeks."

The "fine and soft" wool on the ones I have handled is what lead to what Chuck called "the Anomalous Joel hypothesis."(post #35).

Tom Cole gave a somewhat different account of their provenance, attributing them to ethnic Tatar weavers from further east in northern Afghanistan: "Weavings of this type are known as 'Tatar' in the Afghan marketplace, a term that basically refers to the ethnicity of the weaver rather than anything else. They are woven by Uzbeks in the Kunduz region of northern Afghanistan."

As Richard wrote, they've been abundant in the Western market since at least the late 1990's. Others (e.g., Chuck and Pat) can probably speak to whether they were around before then.